[B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8

Albert & Julia Haig albert_and_julia at yahoo.com.au
Tue Nov 8 03:17:51 EST 2005


> GEGRAPTAi is semantically not a process it is a
state. Do a search on  it in the GNT, LXX etc. Look at
how it is used. It does not describe  an on going
activity.

Yes I agree, but I think this misses the point. The
main thing I'm disagreeing about is *when the state in
question obtains*. You think that grammatically it has
to obtain prior to the foundation of the world. I
think that the grammar allows that it may obtain in
the eschaton, with APO KATABOLHS  KOSMOU referring to
the process which, when completed, resulted in the
present state. To claim that GEGRAPTAi not only means
a state, but also excludes any reference to the
process, now completed, that gave rise to the state,
seems to me overdrawn and I can't see how you can
prove it from the kind of examples you refer to. It
certainly isn't the case for the perfect in general,
as Luke 11:50 illustrates. I think this is the point
that Dr Furuli is making, as I understand it. That
something presently stands written (the state)
obviously entails that at some point previously
writing was done. But both our interpretations treat
GEGRAPTAi as a state. We're just disagreeing about the
point in time at which the state obtains.

Let me illustrate. Let's take a phrase from Rev 17:8,
and simply remove the phrase APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU.
Chuck it away. Then we're just left with: ... hWN OU
GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI TO BILBLION THS ZWHS. Now I
have two questions: (a) does this seem meaningful and
valid grammar? and (b) if so, when would the writing
have occurred? If I may answer my own questions, it
seems to me that this is perfectly meaningful, and
that the writing could have occurred, if the text read
this way, any time up to the eschaton. So, clearly,
the meaning of GEGRAPTAi is not really the key issue.
It is the addition of the words APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
that makes you think that the state had to obtain from
the creation. But I think Luke 11:50 is good evidence
that this phrase can refer to the duration of the
action which, when completed, brought about the state,
rather than just when the state obtained. Admittedly,
that is a different verb, and I can't find an example
that proves it for GEGRAPTAi. But I don't think merely
insisting that GEGRAPTAi refers to a state is adequate
to exclude this possibility.

Dr Furuli's point about this being a negative is a
relevant consideration, though. The only other problem
I can see is that, in this case, with the meaning I am
suggesting APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU becomes a bit
redundant, and doesn't add very much to the sense. But
it still could be there to emphasize that the
name-adding process has been going on throughout the
ages. In Luke 11:50 it seems to be mainly for emphasis
of this kind, although there the reason for such an
emphasis is clearer, since Jesus is saying that the
blood of all the prophets slain, throughout the ages,
is upon their heads.

In summary, it seems to me that grammatically the
reading I suggest is slightly less likely than the
traditional one on purely grammatical grounds, but
nonetheless is reasonable.

Dr Albert Haig.



	

	
		
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