[B-Greek] Mark 3:13-19 Translation Issues

Dan Gleason dan-bgreek at hotmail.com
Tue Nov 15 16:06:31 EST 2005


Regarding the word ASCEND

WM wrote:
>Sample comment:
>And he ascended into (EIS) the Mountain ...
>No English speaker would use the word "ascended" to describe a person
>walking up a mountain.
Mountain climbing, maybe... In English you say "going
>into the mountains" or "going up the mountain", or "going up on the
>mountain", but never "going into the mountain". English and Greek
>prepositions simply don't correspond one to one, and there is no point in
>pretending that they do.

DG: Dear Webb

I think you are totally wrong on this point. The words ascent, ascend, and 
ascending are standard mountain climbing terminolology. Please check if the 
same term is not used in Greece as well as all over the English speaking 
world.

here ia an excerpt from Encarta:

Mountain Climbing, ascending mountains, most commonly as a recreational 
activity. Mountain climbing is popular worldwide, wherever hills rise high 
enough to provide challenge. The activity’s rewards include the physical 
exertion it requires, the satisfaction of overcoming difficulties by working 
with others, the thrill of reaching a summit, and the unobstructed view from 
a mountaintop. Exploration and research are other reasons that people climb 
mountains.

Ascents can be either nontechnical (a hike up a path or a scramble over 
rocks, not requiring the safety of a rope), or technical (a climb up more 
difficult terrain that requires the use of rope and other specialized 
equipment). This article focuses on technical climbs, which involve all the 
elements of simple hikes but also require advanced knowledge and equipment. 
Making technical climbs is also known as mountaineering.

Since ancient times, people have viewed mountain peaks as towering objects 
of myth, spiritual inspiration, and romantic beauty. Early peoples made 
ascents only to hunt game, to rescue lost or strayed animals, or to gain a 
military advantage over an enemy. Eventually, the unknown and inaccessible 
ceased to be something to be feared and avoided, and the conquest of the 
major mountain peaks and ranges of the world began. Mountaineering as a 
sport was born on August 8, 1786, with the first ascent of Mont Blanc (4,810 
m/15,782 ft), one of Europe’s tallest peaks. Since that ascent, mountain 
climbing has evolved into three related sports: alpine climbing, ice 
climbing, and rock climbing. These sports require the same fundamental 
techniques.

The first recorded mountain ascent in the Common Era is Roman Emperor 
Hadrian's ascent of Etna (3,350 m) to see the sun rise in 121.

Regarding the word INTO (EIS)

If Mark wanted to avoid confusion maybe he should have worded the verse some 
other way. I think he purposely chose EIS (meaning into) for a good reason.

Lets assume the reader "can't see too good" when it comes to understanding 
metaphor. Let's assume the reader is like the blind man of Bethsaida after 
Jesus spit in his eyes. Jesus asked him if he was seeing anything and the 
man said "I see Men like Trees walking around." Jesus then had to put his 
hands on the man's eyes (a 2 step cure) before the man could see everything 
clearly.

Look at verse 13 from a stagecraft, set design point of view. The narrater 
in this metaphorical play could be describing a mountain off in the distance 
as seen by a semi-blind reader. The mountain is made of boulders, rocks, and 
stones. Because he can't "see too good" the mountain looks like a silhoette. 
His eyes don't have the resolution to make out the 12 people ascending what 
looks like a big triangle. The twelve look like "living stones" or "moving 
stones" ascending up into or inside the triangle.

So, speaking metaphorically, "INTO" makes perfect sense.

My translation "doesn't convey what the person said in Greek as a person" 
because Mark is no ordinary person. Even when Mark seems to be "speaking 
plainly" he can be speaking in metaphor. The reader can't pick and choose 
when he thinks Mark is speaking metaphorically or not. His words can mean 
almost anything at any time. He has stories within stories at all times. But 
the semi blind reader can't see this.

Are-you- not yet understanding? (Mk 8:21)

Dan Gleason


>From: "Webb" <webb at selftest.net>
>Reply-To: <webb at selftest.net>
>To: "'Dan Gleason'" <dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>, <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Mark 3:13-19 Translation Issues
>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:02:10 -0800
>
>Dear Dan,
>I'd propose that you recast any English formulation in which an ordinary
>reader would say to you, "I know what this means, but you wouldn't say it
>that way in English." If your translation doesn't convey what the person 
>said in Greek as a person
>would say it in English, then you haven't really translated it into 
>English,
>but only into Greenklish or something.
>Greek words do not necessarily correspond one-to-one with English words, 
>nor
>are the principles of word order and grammar particularly similar between
>the two languages. Trying to compose English on the basis of an ideal that
>these should correspond (when they don't) is, in my opinion, a fruitless 
>and
>even counter-productive task. This reality no doubt comes home to
>translators working with languages that are much, much farther away from
>ancient Greek than English is (e.g. Chinese).
>I certainly believe in making the process and issues of translation as
>transparent as possible (e.g. by using footnotes and putting words supplied
>for sense in different formatting). But I think it's worth letting go of 
>the
>ideal of hyper-literalism.
>Peace,
>Webb Mealy

>
>

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