[B-Greek] Eph 1:4 EN AUTWi

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 8 10:47:20 EDT 2006


I'm not sure what points you are trying to distinguish by your question regarding whether EN AUTWi should be read with the preceding word or with the following.  BOTH -- EN AUTWi and PRO KATABOLHS KOSMOU -- modify ECELECATO.  EN AUTWi refers back to EN XRISTWi in the preceding verse to state that it is "in Christ" (or perhaps "for Christ"?) that we are chosen.  PRO KATABOLHS KOSMOU is a temporal designation designating when this choosing took place.
   
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Andrew Batishko <abatish at xmission.com> wrote:
  Thanks for your response, George.

You are correct that I have dismissed #2 without proper consideration. 
My reason for that was because in my mind, #2 kind of states that we 
were a part of Him (implying we existed) before the world was created. 
So, I wasn't really looking at the issue of election in this case. 
Apparently though, there are other was of interpreting that particular 
reading that I hadn't thought about.

My problem is that I can't understand why EN AUTWi is in the text. I 
could understand if it was just KAQWS ECELECATO hHMAS PRO KATABOLHS 
KOSMOU...

I take it from your statement that it is a point of contention whether 
the verse should be read "KAQWS ECELECATO hHMAS EN AUTWi" or "EN AUTWi 
PRO KATABOLHS KOSMOU..." In other words, there are no clear indications 
in the text as to which way it should be read. Is that correct?

Could you explain to me (off-list if that's more appropriate) what you 
would understand "EN AUTWi PRO KATABOLHS KOSMOU..." to mean?

Andrew Batishko

George F Somsel wrote:
> 
> First, text, Text, TEXT
> 
> KAQWS ECELECATO hHMAS EN AUTWi PRO KATABOLHS KOSMOU EINAI hHMAS hAGIOUS 
> KAI AMWMOUS KATENWPION AUTOU EN AGAPHi
> 
> Your out of hand dismissal of #2 has nothing to do with the syntax of 
> the sentence. As for your statement that "that just doesn't seem to 
> mesh with the
> rest of the bible" -- well, a large group feels that it does accord with 
> the rest of the Bible. They are known as Calvinists, and I happen to be 
> one. I'm not going to get into a discussion of theology here since that 
> is strictly against the protocols of this group, but I would caution 
> against eliminating a possibility because of theological concerns. 
> Sometimes we can all be surprised when OUR positions do not seem to be 
> confirmed by the text. Just read the text and seek to understand what 
> it is saying.
> 
> As to your third option, I see no reason to take EN AUTWi with EINAI 
> hHMAS hAGIOUS KAI AMWMOUS KATENWPION AUTOU EN AGAPHi (i.e. we are "to be 
> IN HIM holy and blameless . . .". The distance between the two is 
> simply too great. In any case, I think that what we have with EINAI . . 
> . is what A. T. Robertson in his _A Grammar of the Greek New Testament 
> in the Light of Historical Research_, pp. 541-42 refers to as the 
> "Infinitive as Final Dative" thus expressing the purpose of the 
> preceding clause (which is that we are "to be holy and blameless . . .").
> 
> ____________
> 
> 
> */Andrew Batishko /* wrote:
> 
> I'm only just now starting to learn biblical greek on my own, so
> forgive
> me if the answer to this is obvious.
> 
> Ephesians 1:4 seems to be frequently translated (in part) as something
> like "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we
> would be holy and blameless..."
> 
> I'm confused as to the usage of "in Him" here. I could see it being
> attached to three different possible concepts:
> 
> * He chose us in Him
> * in Him before the foundation of the world
> * that we would be (in Him) holy and blameless
> 
> The second I'll discard, because that just doesn't seem to mesh with
> the
> rest of the bible. The third makes sense to me, but only if "before the
> foundation of the world" is a parenthetical statement. The first is
> probably the most likely, but I really don't understand what it means
> for Him to choose us in Him.
> 
> Can someone help me understand the meaning?
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george
gfsomsel
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