[B-Greek] Comparing John 1:18 & 1John 4:12
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 12 21:09:55 EDT 2006
Friedrich Büchsel in _TDNT_, s.v. ìïíïãåíçò [MONOGENHS] disagrees with you on that point citing among others Lk 7.12
ùò äå çããéóåí ôç ðõëç ôçò ðïëåùò, êáé éäïõ åîåêïìéæåôï ôåèíçêùò ìïíïãåíçò õéïò ôç ìçôñé áõôïõ êáé áõôç çí ÷çñá, êáὶ ï÷ëïò ôçò ðïëåùò éêáíïò çí óõí áõôç.
hWS DE HGGISEN THi PULHi THS POLEWS, KAI IDOU ECEKOMIZETO TEQNHKWS MONOGENHS hUIOS THi MHTRI AUTOU KAI AUTH HN XHRA, KAI OXLOS THS POLEWS hIKANOS HN SUN AUTHi
I tend to agree with him. It does, at least at times, signify "only begotten." Of course, one who is "only begotten" is thereby "unique."
___________
frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:
Dear Friends --
We've been through this many times, but I guess it bears repeating. Consult the archives.
MONOGENHS does *not* mean 'only begotten', but rather 'only, unique'.
When it so intends, Greek expresses 'only begotten' as MONOGENNETOS. It's to be regretted that the Vulgata Latina (maybe in some cases following the Vetus Latina) shifts between rendering MONOGENHS as _unicus_ in some places and _unigenitus_ in others.
It seems that 'only begotten' in English owes more to those skewed Latin translations than to anything inherent in the Greek. No matter how ancient or venerable an English-language translation might be, the rendering 'only begotten' for MONOGENHS is always and everywhere wrong.
People with no access to the source languages are always at the mercy of the translator, God help them, and sometimes even students of the Bible in its original tongues are subconsciously, willy-nilly inclined to go on automatic pilot when regarding any particular locus in the translated text.
Peace and blessings to all.
Father James Silver
Monk James
Orthodox Church in America
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Smith (REL110, 211,212)"
Date: Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Comparing John 1:18 & 1John 4:12
To: B-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Jason,
>
> John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 are not parallel constructions. There
> is no
> conditional aspect to John 1:18. Although one may try to avoid
> the concept
> of "the only begotten God" (MONOGENHS QEOS), it is common in
> Justin Martyr
> by c. 135 C. E., with the son being the only-begotten-God and
> the Father
> being the unbegotten-God. Johannine ideology/terminology
> influenced Justin's
> theology and his writings reflect it in several places. What has been
> offered in several posts is also the way early 2nd century
> Christianityunderstood this idea.
>
>
> Dave Smith
> Hudson, NC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Kerrigan"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 14:53
> Subject: [B-Greek] Comparing John 1:18 & 1John 4:12
>
>
> > There is a very interesting comparison that can be made when
> comparingJohn 1:18
> > with 1John 4:12.
> >
> > John 1:18 says, "theon oudeis heoraken popote monogenes"
> (God no-man
> has-seen
> > at-any-time the-only-begotten)
> >
> > 1John 4:12 says, "theon oudeis popote tetheatai ean
> agapomen" (God
> no-man at-any-
> > time has-beheld if we-love)
> >
> > The NIV translates 1John 4:12 as, "No one has ever seen God;
> but if we
> love" (bold
> > letters mine)
> >
> > By the same standard used to translate 1John 4:12 in the NIV
> couldn'tJohn 1:18
> > be translated as, "No man has seen God at any time
> but/except the only
> begotten"?
> >
> > We see this implication in some Ante Nicene quotations:
> >
> > "As it is written in the Gospel: 'No man has seen God at any time,
> except the only-
> > begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has
> declared him."
> (- Irenaeus,
> > Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pg.489)
> >
> > And, "It is also supported by the scripture: 'No man has
> seen God at any
> time,
> > except the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the
> Father.'" (-
> Disputation
> > of Archelaus and Manes, Ante Nicene Fathers Vol.6, pg.205)
> >
> > (These two tranlsations are taken from "A Dictionary of
> Early Christ
> Beliefs," published by Hendrickson, pg. 642)
> >
> > This would produce an agreeing structure in the second
> clause of John
> 1:18 as found in the first clause of John 1:18. Harold pointed
> out that the
> object noun theon is
> > stated before the verb in the first clause ("God no man has seen")
> likewise, if
> > monogenes is an ending to the first clause (no man has seen
> God at any
> time except
> > the only begotten") then the second clause would also begin
> by stating
> the object first
> > ("God, the one being in the bosom of the Father, that one
> declared").>
> > "No man hath seen God at any time except the only begotten.
> God, the one
> being in
> > the bosom of the Father that one declared."
> >
> > or
> >
> > "No man hath seen God at any time except the only begotten.
> The one
> being in the bosom of the Father hath declared God."
> >
> > Thanks for any help you can provide on this issue,
> > Jaosn Kerrigan
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
> > ---
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george
gfsomsel
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