[B-Greek] Ephesians 2:1 What kind of dative in ONTAS NEKROUS TOIS?
William Ross
woundedegomusic at gmail.com
Sun Aug 13 11:00:56 EDT 2006
Paul has no problem pairing "dead to sin" with "alive to the god." His
baptismal formula of "alive to sin, dead to sin, alive to the god" shows
this:
Romans 5
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we
also should walk in newness of life.
...
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive
unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In light of the legitimacy of that paring in Pauline thought, do you still
object to the dative of reference?
I see the pairing of the datives that you are referring to, but I wonder if
Paul expected his readers to do what you did... read a dative of reference,
then, when they got to the reference to being "co-raised" going back and
starting the paragraph over? Why not avoid misleading the reader and just
say DIA? The dative will naturally lead one to "dead to" and the pairing of
the datives is not contrary to Pauline thought - rather it IS Pauline
thought!
Nor do I think the stative "being dead" really allows an instrumental
reading of "through."
Also you refer to "dead because of sin" - but the text actually says "your
trespasses and sins" - not an abstraction of "sin." Are they "being dead" by
using their trespasses and sins to make themselves dead?
Also I notice you translated KAI as "but." Does Paul ever fail to use DE for
"but?" I take it as "even" - continuing the previous sentence, and
identifying who constitutes the assembly.
William Ross
VGB, Argentina
On 8/13/06, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Since I've snipped the section of the discussion which includes the text,
> I will post it again only now I will post vv 1-5.
>
> *1 *Και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις υμων,
> *2* εν αις ποτε περιεπατησατε κατα τον αιωνα του κοσμου τουτου, κατα τον
> αρχοντα της εξουσιας του αερος, του πνευματος του νυν ενεργουντος εν τοις
> υιοις της απειθειας·
> *3* εν οις και ημεις παντες ανεστραφημεν ποτε εν ταις επιθυμιαις της
> σαρκος ημων ποιουντες τα θεληματα της σαρκος και των διανοιων, και ημεθα
> τεκνα φυσει οργης ως και οι λοιποι·
> *4* ο δε θεος πλουσιος ων εν ελεει, δια την πολλην αγαπην αυτου ην
> ηγαπησεν ημας,
> *5* και οντας ημας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν συνεζωοποιησεν τω Χριστω, -
> χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι -<http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Inbox&Mid=4619_4356967_103343_2809_1274_0_16335_2569_494877435&inc=&Search=&YY=2732&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b#_ftn1>
>
> 1 KAI hUMAS ONTAS NEKROUS TOIS PARAPTWMASIN KAI TAIS AMARTIAIS hUMWN,
> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Inbox&Mid=4619_4356967_103343_2809_1274_0_16335_2569_494877435&inc=&Search=&YY=2732&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b#_ftnref1>2
> EN hAIS POTE PERIEPATHSATE KATA TON AIWNA TOU KOSMOU TOUTOU, KATA TON
> ARXONTA THS ECOUSIAS TOU AEROS, TOU PNEUMATOS TOU NUN ENERGOUNTOS EN TOIS
> hUIOIS THS APEIQEIAS
> 3 EN hOIS KAI hHMEIS PANTES ANESTRAFHMEN POTE EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS THS
> SARKOS hHMWN POIOUNTES TA QELHMATA THS SARKOS KAI TWN DIANOIWN, KAI hHMEQA
> TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS hWS KAI hOI LOIPOI;
> 4 hO DE QEOS PLOUSIOS WN EN ELEEI, DIA THN POLLHN AGAPHN AUTOU hHN
> AGAPHSEN hHMAS,
> 5 KAI ONTAS hHMAS NEKROUS TOIS PARAPTWMASIN SUNEZWOPOIHSEN TWi XRISTWi, --
> XARITI ESTE SESWiMENOI
>
> Your last question first. I changed my mind because I had answered from
> memory but was thinking of another passage where the contrast is being dead
> to sin but alive to God (Rom 6.11). When I realized that I had been
> thinking of the wrong passage, I had to reconsider.
>
> I wouldn't put too much stock in a "menu" of choices for the use of any
> case. The list seems to be continually increased. The Greek speaker of the
> 1st cent A.D. would not have stopped to figure out what kind of dative or
> genitive was involved just as we are not caused to pause and think what the
> usage of the word "bear" might be when we hear "bear any burden" -- is it an
> animal, does it mean to incline toward a certain direction ("bear to the
> left at the fork in the road"). No, we know immediately that it is "to
> carry an object." The context of this passage simply doesn't support the
> idea of being dead "with reference to sin" (which seems to mean that we are
> no longer subject to sin -- at least in principle -- cf. Rom 6.11).
> Rather it is through the instrumentality of sin that we are viewed as being
> dead; but it is, on the contrary, through the instrumentality of Christ that
> we are made alive (v. 5). It is this contrast of ONTOS NEKROUS . . . TAIS
> hAMARTIAIS and SUNEZWOPOIHSEN TWi XRISTI which leads me to take it as
> instrumentality. Just as we are made alive through Christ we are in a state
> of being dead through sin.
>
> __________
>
>
> *William Ross <woundedegomusic at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> The Dative of Cause is not only "on the menu" of choices for translating
>
> EGW DE LIMW hWDE APOLLUMAI
>
> but rather compelling. "dying to hunger" or "dying with reference to
> hunger"
> are not really options.
>
> But "being dead to your trespasses and sins" is actually a very natural
> read, given the large part of Paul's teaching it occupies. Why do you
> avoid
> that translation in favor of a more rare, specialized dative?
>
> You originally suggested Dative of Reference (which seems to me to be the
> obvious reading) but then found something in the subsequent text that
> seemed
> to invalidate that reading in your mind. What precisely was the compelling
> factor in the subsequent text that changed your mind?
>
> Thanks,
>
> William Ross
> VGB, Argentina
>
>
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
>
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