[B-Greek] Heb 11:40 together or not apart?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Aug 16 09:28:22 EDT 2006


On Aug 16, 2006, at 9:18 AM, Craig J wrote:

>>> My question is just on whether NIV and NET are
>>> being overly interpretative in converting the
>>> double negative into a simple positive. I'm
>>> thinking they are, and that is the obvious
>>> conclusion to me, but maybe I draw that
>>> conclusion because I am not familiar enough
>>> with usage of Greek negatives. Maybe the use
>>> of MH CWRIS hHMWN is really the same as
>>> 'together with us' without any loss of
>>> nuance or emphasis..?
>
>> Craig, this is really not a forum for discussing
>> English translations or translation theory, but
>> your focus appears to be more on how the Greek
>> text -- the meaning of which is not at all in
>> question -- is most adequately rendered in
>> English. You should take questions like this to
>> the B-Translation list rather than here:
>>
>> 	https://lists.kastanet.org/Lists/Bible-Translation/List.html
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>
> Hi Carl
>
> I guess the B-Greek question I am trying to ask is this: Is Greek  
> usage of
> the negative more nuanced or specific than in English?
>
> Specifically, the NET translation note says that "the Greek phrasing
> emphasizes this point by negating the opposite." Is this a  
> grammatic rule or
> principle in Greek that an emphatic use of the negative actually  
> emphasizes
> the opposite? Or is it just a case-by-case, contextual and  
> interpretative
> thing, like it is in English (where a negative may be used to  
> emphasize the
> opposite, or it may be used to emphasize the negative)?
>
> IMO the NET note could give the impression that the Greek is  
> clearer in the
> meaning than the literal English would be. But I'm asking if the Greek
> really is clearer or not? I'm thinking it isn't any clearer and  
> they've made
> an interpretative decision, but I'm not sure, so I'm trying to  
> check with
> those more familiar with Greek usage and sense.
>
> To my mind, the reference to English translations was just  
> illustrative
> (though perhaps it seems too distracting) for what I thought was a  
> B-Greek
> question. But if it is not really a B-Greek question, then I will  
> be content
> to not keep on it here :-)

Well, when you shifted to asking WHY the NET and NIV conveyed the
phrasing as they do, it appeared you were asking about the "right"  
way to
translate the text rather than what it means.

If it's any help, I think that in the Greek phrase MH CWRIS hHMWN
we have a standard rhetorical ploy -- so standard that it has a name
("litotes") designating it: emphasizing a positive point by negating the
negative point.

LITOTES as a rhetorical device is "no less common" in English than
it is in Greek, if you catch my meaning.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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