[B-Greek] Titus 2:13 / Revelation 12:14
Harold Holmyard
hholmyard at ont.com
Fri Aug 25 10:21:29 EDT 2006
Dear William,
>This question was not addressed. I also would like to know how thisconclusion was reached as it does not at all appear correct to me.
>
HH: If you mean Jason's question about the adjectival use of the
genitive being a Semiticism, Dan Wallace's _Greek Grammar beyond the
Basics_ suggests that it is not a Semiticism. He says that the force of
the genitive is generally adjectival (p. 76). He defines it as the case
of qualification and occasionally separation. As qualification, it
defines, describes, qualifies, restricts, and limits. It is similar to
the adjective but more emphatic. He has a category called the
adjectival genitive and says that it really touches at the heart of the
genitive. There is an attributive genitive, which allows a translation
for EPIFANEIAN THS DOXHS like "glorious appearing." Wallace gives the
example of "body of sin," TO SWMA THS hARMATIAS (Rom 6:6), which can be
understood as "sinful body."
> I wouldthink that Paul is referring to "the appearance of the glory" for severalreasons:
>* Paul uses the adjectival form many times, so he is not thinking Hebrewabout the correct way to be adjectival* in other places, Paul uses the noun form exclusively as a noun, as far asI can see.* Paul's greek is perfect as he was a highly literate, natural born greekspeaker and only employs "semitisms" when he is quoting the LXX (which arethen technically "septuagintisms" I should think)* the context is his contrasting the appearance of [the time of] "god'sfavor" in the preceding verse with the appearance of "glory"
>Am I mistaken on any of these points?
>
>
>Also, if "the Great God" is conceived of as a title that would only apply tothe one true god, would this then indicate that Sharp's Rule does not apply?
>
HH: No, Sharp's Rule does apply. See Wallace at pages 270-290, where
there is a discussion of this passage in particular. There is no proper
name disqualification of the rule here in the Tit 2:13 phrase. A word
like QEOS is different than a proper name because it can be pluralized
(QEOI), but proper names cannot.
>In effect, doesn't the appearance of the definite article "clash" withhHMWN?
>
>
>
HH: You cannot always do one-for-one literal translating and then judge
by the English, for Greek grammar works differently than English grammar.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>On 8/15/06, Jason Hare <jaihare at gmail.com> wrote:>> Carl,>> This is a bit off-topic of the present discussion (attributive v.> predicate> position and article-noun linkage), but I was just wondering -- since you> mentioned that THS DOXHS της δοξης is functioning adjectivally in Titus> 2:13> -- if this is a semiticism.>> In other words, do you think that Paul was using something similar to the> Hebrew construct phrase? Or it a natural feature of the Greek language to> link two nouns together (using the genitive in the second) to express a> adjectival relationship?>> Best regards,> Jason>>> On 8/15/06, Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:> >> >> > On Aug 14, 2006, at 9:50 PM, Jason Kerrigan wrote:> >> > > Revelation 12:14: TOU AETOU TOU MEGALOU, reads, "great eagle."> > > Likewise I have bellieved that: THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU in Titus 2:13> > > would read, "Great Glory." Can anyone shed some light on why> > > MEGALOU would be descriptive of the antecedent noun in Revelation> > > 12:14 but not in Titus 2:13? I am open to correction.> >> > Jason, this is Greek 101, lesson 3 or 4: positions of the article in> > relation to adjective and noun when all are in agreement as to> > number, gender, and case:> >> > Standard Attributive position: TO MEGA BIBLION: "the big book" --> > (article, adjective, and noun are all neuter singular; the adjective> > is "sandwiched" between the article and the noun)> > Alternative Attributive position TO BIBLION TO MEGA: "the big book"> > or "the book, the big (one)" -- the article-noun group is followed by> > a repeated article and adjective agreeing with the noun; the function> > of the repeated article here is to reference the immediately> > preceding noun and relate the adjective to that preceding noun; this> > is very similar to apposition of "the book" and "the big one" and it> > is also very similar to a relative clause with ellipsis of the verb:> > "the book which (is) big."> >> > Note that in both these constructions the adjective is "embraced" by> > the article which, like the adjective, has the same number, gender,> > and case as the noun.> >> > Different from the above are versions of the Predicate position:> >> > MEGA TO BIBLION, TO BIBLION MEGA -- in both these formulations the> > verb "be" is in ellipsis (that's standard Greek practice). Both> > formulations mean "The book is big."> >> > The formulation in Rev 12:14 is what I have above called the> > "Alternative attributive position": TOU AETOU TOU MEGALOU is the> > genitive-case form of "the eagle, the big (one)" or identical in> > meaning to "the big eagle."> >> > But in Titus 2:13 you're isolating elements that belong together> > grammatically () and linking elements that don't belong together> > grammatically> >> > PROSDECOMENOI THN MAKARIAN ELPIDA KAI EPIFANEIAN THS DOXHS TOU> > MEGALOU QEOU KAI SWTHROS hHMWN IHSOU CRISTOU ...> > lit. "awaiting the happy expectation and appearing of the glory of> > our great God and savior Jesus Christ ... "> >> > THS DOXHS is genitive singular feminine dependent upon the preceding> > noun EPIFANEIAN (here functioning as if it were an adjective: "of> > glory" = "glorious), but TOU MEGALOU QEOU KAI SWTHROS hHMWN is> > genitive singular masculine dependent upon the preceding noun> > EPIFANEIAN: "appearing of our great God and saviior."> >> > In sum, you could not at all view the relationship between TOU AETOU> > TOU MEGALOU and THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU as comparable if you really> > understood something that is very basic to ancient Greek syntax. You> > have focused upon the superficial fact that the phrases you've cited> > from Rev 12:14 and Titus 2:13 each consist of a genitive article and> > genitive noun followed by another genitive article followed by> > another genitive form in agreement with the article -- but you have> > failed to see the syntactic relationship of the elements in the> > larger group and have actually isolated THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU from> > the larger syntactic group in which it belongs.> >> > Carl W. Conrad> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243> > cwconrad2 at mac.com> > WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/> >> >> > ---> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek> > B-Greek mailing list> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek> >>>>> --> Jason A. Hare> jaihare at gmail.com> Joplin, Missouri (USA)> ---> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek> B-Greek mailing list> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek>
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