[B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Dec 16 16:40:10 EST 2006
> From: "Gary Coombs" <Gary.Coombs at shadowmountain.org>
> Date: December 16, 2006 12:42:46 PM EST
> To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>, "Edward Andrews"
> <edandrews at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>
> I don't believe the Greek text itself makes clear how to interpret the
> passage but an understanding of Greek and specifically the use of
> agapao
> and phileo helps. I don't know where the notion comes from that
> phileo
> is a lesser kind of love than agapao. Both agapao and phileo are used
> of divine love as well as love that is less than divine. The
> gospel of
> John itself declares "The Father loves (phileo) the Son. - John 5:20
> That is certainly divine love in this context and could not be treated
> as something inferior to agapao. When Jesus says "sinners love those
> who love them" (Luke 6:32) he is obviously not taking about divine
> love.
>
> Gary Coombs, Southern California Seminary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W. Conrad
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 9:23 AM
> To: Edward Andrews
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>
> It seems to me that this is a question, NOT of what the Greek text as
> a Greek text means, but how to interpret what the Greek text and most
> translations state quite clearly. It may well be that Jesus is
> asking, in this passage, whether Peter's career as a fisherman means
> more to him than Jesus -- but does anyone honestly believe that the
> Greek text itself AS A GREEK TEXT provides an answer to that question?
>
> On Dec 16, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Edward Andrews wrote:
>
>> George:
>>
>>
>> I agree with your point. This possibility fits the way the
>> question is
>> phrased in Greek, for Peter was being asked to choose between two
>> things
>> (between Jesus and "these"). Such a question would also be
>> appropriate in
>> view of Peter's past. He had been one of the first disciples to
>> follow
>> Jesus. (John 1:35-42) Apparently, though, Peter did not immediately
>> follow
>> Jesus full-time. Rather, he returned to his fishing. Thus, some
>> months later
>> Jesus called Peter away from that substantial business to become a
>> 'fisher
>> of men.' (Matthew 4:18-20; Luke 5:1-11) Nonetheless, after Jesus'
>> death,
>> Peter initiated a return to this career, telling some of the
>> disciples: "I
>> am going fishing."-John 21:2, 3.
>>
>> So it is quite possible that Jesus was driving home to Peter the
>> need for
>> making a decisive choice. What was he going to put foremost in life-
>> being a
>> follower of Jesus or pursuing a career, as suggested by the fish
>> piled
>> before them? How significant a place did the fish, the nets, the
>> boats, and
>> the camaraderie with fellow fishermen hold in Peter's heart? Would
>> Peter
>> truly abandon those enjoyable things to put foremost his love for
>> Christ and
>> the consequent feeding of Jesus' "little sheep"?-John 21:17.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>>
>>
>>> Iver,
>>>
>>> The only part of this that was tongue-in-cheek was the manner in
>>> which it
>>> was presented. It was not, of course, just fish but the
>>> associations
>>> which go along with the fish -- the fishing life including the
>>> boats,
>>> nets, companions, the food it produces. I think J. Harold
>>> Greenlee in the
>>> article that Oun Kwon pointed out is exactly correct. It is not a
>>> comparison of Peter's love of Christ to that of Peter for the other
>>> disciples or Peter's love for Christ in comparison with the love
>>> of the
>>> other disciples for Christ. With Rob I vote for fish!
>>>
>>> george
>>> gfsomsel
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:31:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <RRedden604 at aol.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Fellows,
>>>>
>>>> An ambiguous use of the pronoun, either intentional or not, whose
>>>> antecedent can be fish or the love of the other men for Jesus.
>>>> I vote
>>>> for fish!
>>>> Once a fisherman always a fisherman!
>>>>
>>>> Rob Redden
>>>
>>> I can see the tongue in cheek, but still...
>>>
>>> Because of the way ellipsis works in the Greek there is really no
>>> ambiguity in AGAPAiS ME PLEON
>>> TOUTWN, confer the discussion of this topic in May 2002. One has
>>> to carry
>>> over the verb and object
>>> from the first part of the sentence to the next: Dou you love me
>>> more than
>>> these (love me)?
>>> The ambiguity is introduced by the literal rendering of the KJV and
>>> subsequent literal versions,
>>> because English has different rules for ellipsis. The correct
>>> English
>>> translation is: Do you love me
>>> more than these do.
>>> This is just one of numerous examples where literal translations can
>>> easily mislead the readers.
>>>
>>> Iver Larsen
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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