[B-Greek] Enough already! (Jn 21.13 & 21.15)
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Dec 18 07:01:39 EST 2006
Enough already! It's obvious -- isn't it? -- that this discussion has
never been about TOUTWN PLEON but about "more than these" whatever it
may refer to in any language into which the Greek text is
translated. The Greek text and what it means is not in dispute.
Whether or not there's a real ambiguity in the question attributed to
Jesus in this narrative is not one that can be solved by grammatical
tools; much of this discussion has been in the realm of hermeneutics
-- theories and assumptions regarding how scripture is to be
interpreted -- and that lies clearly OUTSIDE the scope of appropriate
B-Greek list-discussion.
On Dec 17, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Curtis Hinson wrote:
> I suppose this will be my only post on this thought as it's heading
> outward from our list topics. But I think a potential issue here is
> that particularly with people of literate Western heritage there's a
> longstanding tradition of putting pressure on the text to render
> definitive answers to theological, even cosmological questions.
> It's a
> modernistic view of canon.
>
> To be fair most of the texts were not designed -- were not written --
> with this function in mind. I tend to think there are areas that are
> ambiguous because sometimes the author has something different in mind
> than what later exegetes would have preferred. Sometimes having a
> more
> natural competency in Greek might merely allow room for ambiguity
> rather
> than trying to analyze it or "autopsy" it to death. A bit of lit crit
> is probably a healthy input.
>
> I'm being a bit quieter lately because I think my angst was showing.
> :-) It's good to take a break sometimes.
>
> Bless the Name
> Curtis Hinson
> http://curtishinson.com
> http://adfontes.ath.cx
>
> Wayne Leman wrote the following on 12/17/2006 12:56 AM:
>> I am of the camp that believes that if we understood Greek better,
>> close to
>> the competence of its native speakers, there would be far fewer
>> ambiguities
>> than we find in the text today. Human communication does not work
>> well with
>> too high a number of ambiguities. Many ambiguities in the biblical
>> text are
>> there because of our analysis and not authorial intent. So, I
>> encourage
>> people to study the context of each passage better, study the
>> theme of a
>> passage, study the flow of the logic, attempt to determine what
>> the author's
>> overall point was that he was trying to communicate. In many, many
>> cases
>> what we think are ambiguities can disappear, and simply be
>> considered as
>> relics of the analytical process not taking everything into
>> consideration
>> that the original author and his audience had to work with as
>> assumptions.
>>
>> There are a few intentional ambiguities in the biblical texts. I
>> think any
>> other real ambiguities are far less than often suggested. Study,
>> study,
>> study! Especially study passages in their total context.
>>
>> Wayne
>> ----
>> Wayne Leman
>> Better Bibles Blog:
>> http://englishbibles.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>> If a text is ambiguous in the original, let's keep it
>>> that way in translation. Dynamic equivalence theory
>>> translators often go overboard to make explicit what
>>> is implicit in the original, and often drift into the
>>> field of interpretation. In this passage, the
>>> antecedent of TOUTWN in v 15 is for interpreters to
>>> decide rather than grammarians. Anyway, that's how I
>>> see it.
>>>
>>
>> ---
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>>
>>
>
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Carl W. Conrad
Co-Chair, B-Greek List
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu or cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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