[B-Greek] Mt 1:18 hEUREQH EN GASTRI ECOUSA
L. Harris
ljoharris at ckt.net
Thu Feb 2 19:14:04 EST 2006
Conrad I found out what I wanted to know, so I will reply directly to the
subject at hand and go off list on relating jewish customs to your post.
thank you
linda harris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
To: <webb at selftest.net>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mt 1:18 hEUREQH EN GASTRI ECOUSA
>
> On Feb 2, 2006, at 12:29 PM, Webb wrote:
>
>> In relation to Acts 8:40, I was thinking along the same lines as
>> HH. If one
>> takes the Philip story as analogous to the kind of thing storied about
>> Elijah and Ezekiel, then "Philip found himself at Azotus" makes
>> sense. The
>> author of Acts could be saying that, as far as Philip is concerned,
>> the
>> Spirit snatches him away and drops him in another place. Otherwise the
>> intent could just be "and Philip showed up in Azotus". But that's a
>> very
>> mundane thing to say, and not a very mundane way of expressing it.
>> There's
>> something mysterious about the Philip story (cf. v. 39) that makes
>> me prefer
>> the first sense.
>
> I have no objection to "Philip found himself at Azotus." What
> disturbs me, however, is that the translation is pitched to make a
> theological point rather than to convey what the verb means by and of
> itself. Granted it's in a context, but can't the reader draw the
> conclusion for him/herself that you wnat him/her to draw?
>
>> As for how the word hEUREQH functions in Matt. 1, I have an
>> approach that
>> I'm not sure is any better than what's already been put forward:
>> After his mother Mary had become formally engaged to Joseph, but
>> before
>> their union, they discovered that she had conceived a child by the
>> Holy
>> Spirit. Joseph, her husband, was a man of integrity. Not wanting
>> her to be
>> disgraced, he intended to divorce her secretly.
>> My main reason for rendering it "they discovered" is that the previous
>> sentence refers to Mary and Joseph, then "their" union,
>
> i.e. their "non-union"?
>
>> and immediately
>> comes hEUREQH EN GASTRI ECOUSA EK PNEUMATOS hAGIOU, then
>> immediately Joseph.
>> If M had said that she found out or he found out, that would have
>> raised the
>> question, how did Joseph find out? So M puts it in the indefinite,
>> to bridge
>> between the previous sentence, with the two of them, and the following
>> sentence, with Joseph.
>> L. Harris's argument seems potentially weighty, but it raises the
>> question
>> of how M could talk about Joseph's desire to "divorce her secretly"
>> and so
>> protect Mary from scandal, if she had just failed a formal legal
>> test of
>> purity. If the "finding" was formal and legal, how could a scandal be
>> suppressed?
>
> Here I would object even more to a paraphrase that goes beyond what
> the Greek text says in order to emphasize an interpretation. And your
> objection to L. Harrris' argument can be applied just as well to your
> own suggestion that the discovery is a joint one made by Joseph and
> Mary. After all, if Joseph realized that Mary was pregnant by the
> Holy Spirit, why would he be contemplating a quiet dissolution of
> their engagement?
>
> Of course, this is not a forum to discuss translation theory, but
> since so much seems to be at stake to some in what implications there
> are for this or that interpretation of hEUREQH, I must say that don't
> understand why translators should feel a need to fill in gaps that
> the original writers don't seem to have been aware of. I've had the
> notion that the NT writers generally were reasonably economical in
> their narrative composition; why should a translator feel he has to
> do them one better? The old Latin proverb is "ars est celare artem"
> -- "The real art is to disguise the artifice." Leave something for
> the reader to ponder of what the writer meant.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Harold Holmyard
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:14 AM
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mt 1:18 hEUREQH EN GASTRI ECOUSA
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Acts 8:40 FILIPPOS DE hEUREQH EIS AZWTON Here it's something like
>>>> "Philip appeared next in Azotus."
>>>
>>>
>>> You may be right that this is the best approach for translating this
>>> verse, but please let me explain why I offered "found himself"
>>> here. The
>>> language in the previous verse (v. 39) is odd:
>>>
>>> hOTE DE ANHBHSAN EK TOU hUDATOS, PNEUMA KURIOU hARPASEN TON
>>> FILIPPON KAI
>>> OUK EIDEN AUTON OUKETI hO EUNOUCOS, EPOREUETO GAR THN hODON
>>> AUTOU CAIRWN
>>>
>>> The issue with me is whether there is a miracle or just strong
>>> descriptive language. Reasons for thinking it might be miraculous
>>> are:
>>> 1) the Spirit snatches Philip away, 2) the verb hARPAZW is used of a
>>> supernatural catching up of people into heaven in 1 Thess 4:17, 3)
>>> the
>>> text says oddly that the eunuch did not see Philip any longer, 4)
>>> verse
>>> 40 says that Philip was found/found himself/appeared in Azotus.
>>>
>>> Parsons and Culy, _Acts: A Handbook on the Greek Text_ (168), note
>>> that
>>> GAR may introduce a "compound sentence" covering not only the
>>> following
>>> words in verse 39 but also the clause in verse 40 about Philip in
>>> Azotus. So both ideas would explain why the eunuch no longer saw him.
>>>
>>> The text makes it sound as though Philip just supernaturally
>>> disappeared
>>> and then (re-)appeared at Azotus. However, perhaps the snatching was
>>> more of an internal compulsion manifested by Philip in walking
>>> away from
>>> the eunuch towards Azotus under the Spirit's leading. The words about
>>> seeing him no longer would then imply that the eunuch had no further
>>> dealings with him because he kept on his journey to Egypt, rejoicing
>>> over his new-found faith and not concerned about Philip's departure.
>>>
>>> If this were a miraculous event, the OT may suggest some precedent
>>> for
>>> this sort of thing with men of God:
>>>
>>> 1Kings 18:12 I don't know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you
>>> when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn't find you,
>>> he will
>>> kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth.
>>>
>>> Of course, the same interpretative question exists in 1 Kgs 18:12.
>>> The
>>> LXX verb there is AIRW ("take up") and the Hebrew equivalent implies
>>> "carry, bear." We also have the Spirit taking Ezekiel places, though
>>> that may not actually be physical:
>>>
>>> Ezek. 11:1 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of
>>> the house of the LORD that faces east. There at the entrance to
>>> the gate
>>> were twenty-five men, and I saw among them Jaazaniah son of Azzur and
>>> Pelatiah son of Benaiah, leaders of the people.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Harold Holmyard
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
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