[B-Greek] Two men in one bed?
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jul 21 08:35:41 EDT 2006
(a) the word is KLINH (eta, not epsilon -- and we transliterate eta
as "H").
(b) We've discussed this usage in the past on this list.
On Jul 21, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Fridolin Janzen wrote:
> Since in Luke 17:35, Luke uses the feminine in order to describe
> two women
> grinding together, "MIA" and "HETERA", wouldn't that mean that he
> purposefully uses the masculine in verse 34 in order to describe
> two men?
> The words ANAKLINW, KATAKLINW derive from KLINE, and the
> illustrations I
> have from the time, show that they "always" reclined at the table
> for the
> meals. They did not "sit" at the table the way we do today.
Actually the verbs don't DERIVE from the noun but both from a shared
root KLIN-.
I've always been amused that translators regularly English these
verbs as "sit at table" -- anachronistically. Of course it's true
that artists (e.g. Leonardo in the celebrated Milan "Last Supper")
have depicted the disciples as seated at the table. There are several
images of the Roman "triclinium" or dining-room with an arrangement
of three (or more) couches arranged in a "C" pattern on which three
guests lay on each of the couches facing a central service area and
the others on the other couches.
It has been suggested earlier (by Barry Hofstetter, I think) that
there's nothing uncommon in ancient times or even as late as the 19th
century about men sharing the same bed, and there's no sexual
impropriety implied in the fact -- although some have tried (for
reasons of their own?) to impute homosexual tendencies to Abraham
Lincoln on the basis of this very common practice. Dickens has
numerous instances in his novels of travelers especially sharing beds
in inns.
OF COURSE, as has been pointed out, the masculines hO hEIS and hO
hETEROS may be generic and COULD refer to a man and his wife, but the
assumption that it PROBABLY refers to a man and his wife is
unnecessary and even misses the focus of the pronouncement by Jesus.
> They did not use
> chairs, they used the "KLINE", so two men could have been taking a
> meal at
> the "KLINE" at the event described, just like Jesus and His
> disciples were
> reclined during the Last Supper. In Portuguese we have feminine and
> masculine articles in order to differentiate between the two, just
> like in
> German, which is not the case in English. Luther differentiates,
> using the
> masculine in verse 34 and the feminine in verse 35.
>
> Pastor Fridolin Janzen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Iver Larsen [mailto:iver at larsen.dk]
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 3:52 AM
> To: Fridolin Janzen; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Two men in one bed?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fridolin Janzen" <fjanzen at gmx.net>
>
>> Luke 17:34 says that two men shall be in one "bed" (KLINE). Could "O"
> (masculine) also refer to a woman?
>> Since the meals were taken at a "KLINE", should this word not be
>> translated as "couch" or a synonym, in order for people to
>> understand the
> text properly? I used the word "divã" in my translation.
>> Do you think I am on the right track?
>
>> Pastor Fridolin Janzen
>
> No, I don't think you are on the right track.
>
> Why did you make the assumption that two men are being talked
> about? No
> English version is saying that, so it may be a Portuguese one?
> The closest is KJV which says "in that night there shall be two
> [men] in
> one bed" indicating that the word "men" is supplied, but "men" in
> those days
> meant people, not men.
>
> The Greek says:
> Lk 17:34 LEGW hUMIN, TAUTHi THi NUKTI ESONTAI DUO EPI KLINHS MIAS,
> [hO] hEIS
> PARALHMFQHSETAI KAI hO hETEROS AFEQHSETAI
>
> Since there is no noun connected to DUO, the implied noun must be
> ANQRWPOI
> (people). When a noun is to be supplied, it must come from the
> preceding
> context (not applicable here) or the most generic noun is to be
> chosen.
> ANQRWPOI (people) is more generic than ANDRES (men).
>
> Both hO and hEIS are masculine, because they refer to the implied
> ANQRWPOS.
> The same applies to hO hETEROS. The text is not difficult and the
> hO is
> optional, just like in English you could say "One will be taken" or
> "The one
> will be taken".
> The presence of the article seems to add an emphasis on the
> contrast between
> the two people. "The one person" will be taken, "the other person"
> will be
> left.
>
> The text does not tell us whether it refers to two men or a man and
> a woman.
> It is just two people. Therefore, the correct translation is "two
> people"
> like almost every English version says.
>
> I am not sure of the specific challenges in Portuguese. If you don't
> distinguish between "men" and "people" as in old English, the
> translation
> may be more ambiguous than the original Greek is, and therefore
> lead to
> potentially wrong assumptions by the readers.
>
> Also, it is unlikely to talk about lying down for dinner. Nowhere
> in the NT
> is KLINH used as a place to be reclining on for dinner. The verbs
> used for
> reclining for a meal are ANAKLINW, KATAKLINW, ANAPIPTW, KATAKEIMAI,
> (SUN)ANAKEIMAI.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ---
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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