[B-Greek] Phil 1:29

yancywsmith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Mon Jun 26 19:58:30 EDT 2006


I quite agree, unfortunately it is very difficult to make a  
translation in which the meaning of the Greek does not suffer, either  
through over literalness or through too much freedom. The Talmud  
Bavli (Qid. 49a) has this delightful mind bender: "He who translates  
a verse verbatim is a liar. But he who alters it is a villain and a  
heretic." Moral of the story? Don't translate, I guess!?! I just  
checked the Spanish translation we did of Phil 1:29. We came up with:  
"Dios les ha concedido el honor no sólo de creer en Cristo, sino  
también de sufrir por él." English back translation: "God has granted  
you the honor not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering  
for him." I think translations that put in a subject of the verb  
"have been given" (something like "honor," "opportunity,"  or  
"privilege" GNB) are trying to get at the nuance of the CARIS root in  
the verb (an implication of abundance, generosity, etc) in a way that  
makes better sense to their reading audience than simply using the  
Greek structure, which certainly cannot be used without retouching. I  
also agree that there is certainly more meaning intended by Paul than  
comes across in just about any translation I have seen, but trying on  
new renderings for size is almost as rewarding as finding the right one.

Yancy Smith
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
5636 Wedgworth Rd.
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565


On Jun 26, 2006, at 3:50 PM, Lillian Belt wrote:

> Well, this is my first attempt at this so here goes:
>
> I think you are right, Yancy, in that the word ECARISQH is the key  
> word to a proper translation, however, I depart from there.  I  
> think it would be better interpretered in light of the NT writer's  
> concept of the word, than what is "natural" in English. To be  
> "granted" to do something accords to that person a higher honor,  
> than to be given an opportunity.  I think your translation, "a  
> grand opportunity has been given" is far enough "off the mark", as  
> to diminish the power and force of the original language, thus the  
> translation suffers harm.  Even in English if we "grant" something,  
> it is by special permission, rather than just an opportunity.
>
> I hope I have kept to the guidelines of this web site, and  
> addressed only lexiconical and not theological issues.
>
> I await replies.
>
> Lillian Belt
> PO Box 320
> Independence, KS USA
>
> yancywsmith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I inserted "the opportunity" because of the naturalness of the phrase
> in English "to give some one the opportunity to do something." It
> isn't so natural to say, "to you has been granted to believe, etc."
> So, the grammatical reason for inserting it is a target language
> reason, not a Greek grammar reason. In Greek "to you can be granted
> to do something or the other" in English we usually give someone a
> chance/opportunity to do something or the other. I think the
> theological pay dirt is in the verb ECARISQH, in effect, God had
> granted them grace not only to believe but to suffer. BTW, I don't
> think "a grand opportunity has been given" is not a bad translation
> of ECARISQH is not too far off the mark.
>
> BTW, I garbled my previous answer, it should have read
> > Infinitives are used either adverbially (purpose, result or  
> something
> > like that) or as nominals (subject, adjective, object, object of a
> > preposition). In this case, both infinitives TO ... PISTEUEIN and
> > TO ... PASCEIN are being used as nouns, specifically as appositonal
> > extensions of the subject of the passive verb ECARISQH, which is  
> this
> > case is TO hUPER CRISTON. Neither of the infinitives is the  
> object of
> > the prepositions EIS and hUPER, rather, AUTON and
> AUTOU
> > are the
> > objects of these prepositions. So, a pony translation would be: "To
> > you has been granted the [following thing] on behalf of Christ,  
> [that
> > is] not only the in him to believe but also the on behalf of him to
> > suffer." Or better English: To you has been granted on behalf of
> > Christ, not only [the opportunity] to believe in him but also to
> > suffer for him."
>
>
> Yancy Smith
> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> 5636 Wedgworth Rd.
> Fort Worth, TX 76133
> 817-361-7565
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2006, at 1:09 PM, Muz wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the answer. I see how the TO's are working together,
> > with the last two apparantly being attributive prepositional
> > phrases that have little to do with the infinitives.
> >
> > One futher question on your translation: Is "the opportunity" a
> > theological insertion or a lexical/grammatical one?
> >
> > Michael faber
> >
> > On 6/26/06, yancywsmith wrote:
> > Infinitives are used either adverbially (purpose, result or  
> something
> > like that) or as nominals (subject, adjective, object, object of a
> > preposition). In this case, both infinitives TO ... PISTEUEIN and
> > TO ... PASCEIN are being used as nouns, specifically as appositonal
> > extensions of the subject of the passive verb ECARISQH, which is  
> this
> > case is TO hUPER CRISTON. Neither of the infinitives is the  
> object of
> > the prepositions EIS and hUPER, rather, AUTON and hUPER are the
> > objects of these prepositions. So, a pony translation would be: "To
> > you has been granted the [following thing] on behalf of Christ,  
> [that
> > is] not only the in him to believe but also the on behalf of him to
> > suffer." Or better English: To you has been granted on behalf of
> > Christ, not only [the opportunity] to believe in him but also to
> > suffer for him."
> >
> > Yancy Smith
> > yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> > 5636 Wedgworth Rd.
> > Fort Worth, TX 76133
> > 817-361-7565
> >
> >
> > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:57 AM, Muz wrote:
> >
> > > 29 OTI hUMIN ECARISQH TO UPER CRISTOU, OU MONON TO EIS AUTON
> > > PISTEUEIN ALLA
> > > KAI TO UPER AUTOU PASCEIN.
> > >
> > > 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to
> > > believe in
> > > Him, but also to suffer for His sake
> > >
> > > I apologize for not having my Wallace/Mounce with me...
> > >
> > > However, aren't "to believe" and "to suffer" more than simple
> > > infinitives?
> > > They appear to either be articular infinitives with EIS and UPER
> > > prepositions, or articular prepositional phrases.
> > >
> > > Obviously the latter doesn't make a whole lot of sense...
> > >
> > > But the former would seem to be better translated "in order that
> > > you might
> > > believe" and "in order that you might suffer", reflecting a  
> purpose
> > > and a
> > > result subjunctive feeling that often comes with articular
> > > infinitives...
> > >
> > > Did I miss something?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > > B-Greek mailing list
> > > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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> >
> >
>
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