[B-Greek] Fw: 2 Tim 1:3 APO

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Wed Mar 8 12:29:05 EST 2006



  Dear Carl,

  How grateful I am for this forum as well the opportunity to communicate in
  various ways via email and email posts, but, alas, sometimes it's fairly
  easy to use a phrase or a word; that user knowing exactly what he or she 
is
  thinking of when they use it, that doesn't necessarily communicate to the
  hearer that same thought; no fault to either party, of course.

  I say this mostly as a preface to some thoughts I want to offer concerning
  the word "things" but first would like to say when I wrote "I appreciate 
the
  did indeed make it as though I was bidding adieu to the current thread. I
  would like to continue if that's ok.


  I wrote:

   from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the
   forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or elements, 
not
   the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are
   by what was brought to be in the forefathers."

   To which you responded, Carl,


   I think that the meaning you're suggesting would require something
   like a substantive: TA APO TWN PROGONWN. I really don't see how APO
   TWN PROGONWN as a phrase can mean anything other than "from the/my
   forefathers" -- not "THINGS FROM THE/MY FOREFATHERS."


   VN:

   Yes, if it were referring to specific items, issues, or matters; I agree
   that one would expect the above. However, I was using the word things in 
the
   sense that is found in Websters under 2. Things indicating the real or
   concrete substance of an entity as opposed to it's appearance.
   Even somewhat of what's mentioned in 1. an idea, quality perceived, 
known,
   or considered to have a separate existence. With this is mind my 
statement
   would then sound like this:>

   Rather; the genitive cased phrase APO PROGONWN (taking it to mean
   the real substance, the idea and quality known
   from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the
   forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or
   elements, not
   the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are
   characterized
   by what was brought to be in the forefathers.

   Notice, Carl, that Paul used not only a genitive cased phrase (which 
points
   to the characteristics of something) but it is also anarthrous which more
   often than not refers more to the qualities of that something, rather 
than
   the something itself. If Paul were referring to the forefathers 
themselves
   or more specifically "his" forefathers would we not expect the definite
   article "TWN" as well as the genitive case MOU or EMOS as in:

   TWN PROGONWN MOU..or TWN EMOS PROGONWN

   In Goodwin's Grammar under 944a we find:

   Substantives with a possesive pronoun take the article when they refer to
   definite individuals but not otherwise.

   All of this being said, I think still that the anarthrous genitive cased
   phrase APO PROGONWN is Paul referring to those realities to be found in 
all
   the fathers (concerning service to God) and he is saying to Timothy that
   is implicitly Paul does not say in that kind of way; I think because, 
once
   again, Carl, it is as you said:

  "I think that the phrasing implies more than it says."


  VN: and I would add that I think Paul wrote this very thing to encourage
  Timothy to garner and serve with those very "things" that are APO 
PROGONWN.




  Virgil Newkirk
  Salt Lake City, Utah
 



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