[B-Greek] John 12:2a

Iver Larsen iver at larsen.dk
Fri May 5 15:54:46 EDT 2006


>
> On May 5, 2006, at 9:50 AM, gfsomsel at juno.com wrote:
>
>> I hate to have to be a wet blanket, but I think the commentator in  question and Iver as well are guilty here of 
>> precisely what Iver  has accused a commentator of doing in another post -- i.e. making  things difficult.  Even with 
>> the supposed deficiency of English in  not having an impersonal form corresponding to some other  languages, I think 
>> the passage is plain when read in a straight  forward manner.  "They" had a dinner in Jesus' honor.  Who were 
>> "they"? Obviously "they" cannot be either Lazarus or Martha or Mary  since they are single individuals while this 
>> must be more than one  person.  Well, Martha served, Lazarus was present, and Mary  annointed his feet.  Perhaps 
>> others were present as well, but these  three are named.

To George,

I don't mind wet blankets as long as they are not literal ones, but I don't agree with your assessment. And your 
expression "they had a dinner" is rather vague and ambiguous. It is not clear whether "having a dinner" refers to eating 
it or arranging it. The Greek words were EPOIHSAN AUTWi DEIPNON - "they" made for him a dinner. The "they" refer to 
those who organised the dinner, not those who consumed it. You are also overlooking the fact that a pronoun reference is 
normally anaphoric, and so far in the text neither Mary nor Martha have been mentioned.
The deficiency in English is felt keenly by those of us who have an indefinite pronoun in our own languages. I am often 
at a loss concerning how to properly translate the "man" from Danish to English. In most cases "they" simply won't work. 
The impersonal "you" is more likely to work in general statements (not in John 12:2). You who are native speakers of 
English have learned to cope with that deficieny and therefore don't feel it.

> For my part, I'm not convinced that "they" as an impersonal 3rd  plural isn't at home in English. I'm not saying that 
> the passive  couldn't be used to express the same meaning, although the sense  really is impersonal.

To Carl,

As long as you recognize that this is an impersonal use of "they" which is distinct from the ordinary anaphoric 
reference use of "they", I am happy.
I won't judge how much the impersonal 3rd person is "at home" in English. That is why I made reference to English 
versions who decided that the use of "they" would be unnatural or misleading in this particular case (NLT, NIV, CEV). In 
the case of John 12:2 it may well be possible to use "they" in the sense of "the unspecified people in the house", but 
there are other instances of the impersonal 3rd person plural in Greek where "they" would be a problematic translation. 
In Matt 1:23 even the literal RSV chose to deviate from "they shall call his name" and rendered it "his name shall be 
called."

Anyway, my main interest was to point out the impersonal 3rd plural use in Greek.

Iver Larsen 




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