[B-Greek] The Tree of Life in Rev. 22:2

Curtis Hinson curtis at curtishinson.com
Wed May 10 13:36:35 EDT 2006


What encoding is your Hebrew in George?  It's not Unicode or ISO Hebrew.

ואיבה אשית בינך
ובין האשה ובין
זרעך ובין זרעה
הוא ישופך ראש
ואתה תשופנו עקב׃

Genesis 3:15  5 wü´êbâ ´äšît Bênkä ûbên hä´iššâ ûbên zar`ákä ûbên zar`äh 
hû´ yüšûpkä rö´š wü´aTTâ Tüšûpennû `äqëb s

Bless the Name
Curtis Hinson

gfsomsel at juno.com wrote the following on 5/10/2006 12:28 PM:
> I think what we have here is a Semitism.  Take Gen 3.15 in Heb for example
> <!--StartFragment-->
> W:)"YBfH )f$iYT B.YN:Kf W.B"N Ha)i$.fH
> Painfully literally: "I will put enmity between you and betwen the woman".
> I wouldn't try to visualize a tree on both sides of the river.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
>
> -- "Stephen Douglas" <dr.elwinransom at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm having a hard time deciding what to make of this passage.  It says,
>
> (1) KAI EDEIXEN MOI POTAMON hUDATOS ZWHS LAMPRON hOS KRUSTALLON
> EKPOREUOMENON EK TOU QRONOU TOU QEOU KAI TOU ARNIOU (2) EN MESW THS PLATEIAS
> AUTHS KAI TOU POTAMOU ENEUQEN KAI EKEIQEN XULON ZWHS POIOUN KARPOUS DWDEKA
> KATA MHNA hEKASTON APODIDOUN TON KARPON AUTOU KAI TA FULLA TOU XULOU EIS
> QERAPEIAN TWN EQNWN.
>
> Modern translators or more likely to construe the phrase "EN MESW THS
> PLATEIAS AUTHS" in verse 2 with POTAMON in verse 1.  I don't suppose there's
> any other way to take the phrase "KAI TOU POTAMOU ENEUQEN KAI EKEIQEN" than
> as describing the Tree of Life, but this spawns my questions:
>
> 1) Should we take the XULON as manifestly singular or should we understand
> it as referencing more than one tree, as a class (this sort of tree grows on
> either side of the river)?  This seems problematic to me, not only because
> the singular identification of the XULON here and in the following phrase
> (along with the singular pronoun AUTOU) undeniably give the impression of
> true singularity, but especially because the presumable allusion to the Tree
> of Life in the Garden of Eden would definitely suggest a single tree.
>
> 2) This leads to this question.  How can one tree grow on two sides of a
> river, unless it somehow bridges it?  Is this tree seen as naturally being
> split near the ground so that the roots are split over the tree?  Is there
> some sort of vegetation that does this that XULON may refer to?  Does XULON
> in Koine ever refer to anything besides what we'd consider a tree (a bush,
> etc.)?
>
> Thanks for your help!
> Stephen Douglas, Perry, GA
>
> On 5/10/06, b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org <
> b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>   
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Homer (gfsomsel at juno.com)
>>    2. Re: Homer (Carl W. Conrad)
>>    3. Re: Rod Decker's LXX Vocabulary List (Joseph Weaks)
>>    4. Re: Rod Decker's LXX Vocabulary List (Carl W. Conrad)
>>    5. Thank you -  Re: Homer (Ed Garcia)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:25:05 GMT
>> From: "gfsomsel at juno.com" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Homer
>> To: Ed.Garcia at FHLBTopeka.com
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Message-ID: <20060509.092542.13636.1169332 at webmail50.lax.untd.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> Back up a little.
>> EPEI hH POLU FERTERON ESTIN
>> OIKAD' IMEN SUN NHUSI KORWNISIN, OUDE S' OIW
>> ENQAD' ATIMOS EWN AFENTOS KAI PLOUTON AFUCEIN.
>>
>> Then much better is it
>> that we go home with our beaked ships, nor do I intend,
>> while being dishonored here, goods and wealth to acquire.
>>
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>> _________
>>
>> -- "Ed Garcia" <Ed.Garcia at FHLBTopeka.com> wrote:
>> Hello to the group.
>>
>> In order to improve our overall understanding of Greek some friends and
>> I have taken a break from Koine and are working through Clyde Pharr's
>> Homeric Greek for Beginners. But we are puzzled about a certain passage.
>> In Pharr's book they are lines 169b-171 of the Iliad.
>>
>> Below are the lines in question, I hope I have presented them correctly.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------- EPEI H POLU FERTERON ESTIN
>>
>> OIKAD' IMEN SUN NHUSI KORWNISIN, OUDE S' OIW
>>
>> ENQAD' ATIMOS EWN AQENOS KAI PLOUTON AFUXEIN.
>>
>> The section that puzzles us is the following:  OUDE S' OIW ENQAD' ATIMOS
>> EWN
>>
>> We consulted several translations and what puzzles us is that most seem
>> to ignore the OUDE and though we can translate OIW (hopefully correctly)
>> as "I think" or "consider". We don't see either "I think", "consider" or
>> any words like them in any of the translations we consulted. One typical
>> translation we consulted was by Samuel Butler "it will be much better
>> for me to return home with my ships, for I will not stay here
>> dishonoured to gather gold and substance for you."
>>
>> Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
>>
>> Ed Garcia
>> Kansas
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely
>> for the use of the intended recipient. The information contained
>> herein may be legally privileged, proprietary or subject to copyright
>> or trademark protection or may  constitute material, non-public
>> information regarding the sender, subject to protection under federal
>> or state law or regulations. If you are not the intended recipient,
>> be aware that any use, copying or distribution of this information
>> is strictly prohibited and may subject you to criminal or civil
>> penalties. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the
>> sender immediately by e-mail reply and delete this e-mail from your
>> computer. Thank you for your cooperation.
>> FEDERAL HOME LOAN BANK OF TOPEKA [FHLBInfo at fhlbtopeka.com]
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
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>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:40:46 -0400
>> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Homer
>> To: gfsomsel at juno.com
>> Cc: Ed.Garcia at FHLBTopeka.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Message-ID: <E9CFB2C5-50F5-414A-BD7A-553D0B578675 at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> On May 9, 2006, at 12:25 PM, gfsomsel at juno.com wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Back up a little.
>>> EPEI hH POLU FERTERON ESTIN
>>> OIKAD' IMEN SUN NHUSI KORWNISIN, OUDE S' OIW
>>> ENQAD' ATIMOS EWN AFENTOS KAI PLOUTON AFUCEIN.
>>>
>>> Then much better is it
>>> that we go home with our beaked ships, nor do I intend,
>>> while being dishonored here, goods and wealth to acquire.
>>>       
>> correction of transcription:
>>
>> EPEI H POLU FERTERON ESTIN
>> OIKAD' IMEN SUN NHUSI KORWNISIN, OUDE S(OI) OIW
>> ENQAD' ATIMOS EWN AFENOS KAI PLOUTON AFUXEIN.
>>
>> This is part of Achilles' angry response to Agamemnon:
>>
>> "For indeed far bettter is it
>> to go home with (our) beaked ships, nor do I intend
>> while being without honor here to heap up riches and wealth for you."
>>
>> OUDE construes with OIW ... AFUXEIN: "nor do I think (that I
>> will) ... to heap up" This is an instance of OIW taking complementary
>> infinitive, the future infinitive AFUXEIN. The OUDE is simply the
>> equivalent of KAI OU. Note also that here the elided S' is not for SE
>> but rather for the dative SOI.
>>
>>     
>>> _________
>>>
>>> -- "Ed Garcia" <Ed.Garcia at FHLBTopeka.com> wrote:
>>> Hello to the group.
>>>
>>> In order to improve our overall understanding of Greek some friends
>>> and
>>> I have taken a break from Koine and are working through Clyde Pharr's
>>> Homeric Greek for Beginners. But we are puzzled about a certain
>>> passage.
>>> In Pharr's book they are lines 169b-171 of the Iliad.
>>>
>>> Below are the lines in question, I hope I have presented them
>>> correctly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------- EPEI H POLU FERTERON ESTIN
>>>
>>> OIKAD' IMEN SUN NHUSI KORWNISIN, OUDE S' OIW
>>>
>>> ENQAD' ATIMOS EWN AQENOS KAI PLOUTON AFUXEIN.
>>>
>>> The section that puzzles us is the following:  OUDE S' OIW ENQAD'
>>> ATIMOS
>>> EWN
>>>
>>> We consulted several translations and what puzzles us is that most
>>> seem
>>> to ignore the OUDE and though we can translate OIW (hopefully
>>> correctly)
>>> as "I think" or "consider". We don't see either "I think",
>>> "consider" or
>>> any words like them in any of the translations we consulted. One
>>> typical
>>> translation we consulted was by Samuel Butler "it will be much better
>>> for me to return home with my ships, for I will not stay here
>>> dishonoured to gather gold and substance for you."
>>>
>>> Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Ed Garcia
>>> Kansas
>>>
>>> This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely
>>> for the use of the intended recipient. The information contained
>>> herein may be legally privileged, proprietary or subject to copyright
>>> or trademark protection or may  constitute material, non-public
>>> information regarding the sender, subject to protection under federal
>>> or state law or regulations. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>> be aware that any use, copying or distribution of this information
>>> is strictly prohibited and may subject you to criminal or civil
>>> penalties. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the
>>> sender immediately by e-mail reply and delete this e-mail from your
>>> computer. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>> FEDERAL HOME LOAN BANK OF TOPEKA [FHLBInfo at fhlbtopeka.com]
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
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>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>       
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 02:32:06 -0500
>> From: Joseph Weaks <j.weaks at tcu.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rod Decker's LXX Vocabulary List
>> To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Message-ID: <935229ecb07613d2b9807fc38f81b26c at tcu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>> I must be misunderstanding the kind of list being discussed here. The
>> pdf file is not displaying for me, so can't check. A LXX frequency list
>> takes a mere half a minute using a computer program such as Accordance.
>> Is this not the kind of thing we're talking about:
>> http://stuwww.tcu.edu/~jweaks/files/LXXVocabFrequency.txt
>> It contains every word occurring 10 or more times, using Unicode Greek.
>>
>> Joe Weaks
>> http://macbiblioblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> On May 3, 2006, at 1:59 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>>     
>>> Rod Decker ... completed a LXX Vocabulary list that may be
>>> helpful to some B-Greekers. Here's his description; the URL follows
>>> below:
>>>
>>> "LXX Greek vocabulary list by frequency. One of the more frequent
>>> questions I've been asked over the past few years is, "Where can I
>>> find a vocabulary frequency list for the Septuagint?" I've not been
>>> able to point to any such tool, so eventually I got around to making
>>> a beginning attempt at offering such a tool...
>>>       
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 05:47:13 -0400
>> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rod Decker's LXX Vocabulary List
>> To: Joseph Weaks <j.weaks at tcu.edu>
>> Cc: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Message-ID: <D5A554FE-F986-44F6-BC5D-626992070D8A at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>> Joe, I had no trouble downloading and displaying Rod's list; it's
>> exactly like your list, although the numbers you cite from Accordance
>> tend to be somewhat higher and your list is exhaustive down to 10+
>> words while his goes down only to words used 100+ times in the GNT.
>>
>> On May 10, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Joseph Weaks wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I must be misunderstanding the kind of list being discussed here. The
>>> pdf file is not displaying for me, so can't check. A LXX frequency
>>> list
>>> takes a mere half a minute using a computer program such as
>>> Accordance.
>>> Is this not the kind of thing we're talking about:
>>> http://stuwww.tcu.edu/~jweaks/files/LXXVocabFrequency.txt
>>> It contains every word occurring 10 or more times, using Unicode
>>> Greek.
>>>
>>> Joe Weaks
>>> http://macbiblioblog.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> On May 3, 2006, at 1:59 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Rod Decker ... completed a LXX Vocabulary list that may be
>>>> helpful to some B-Greekers. Here's his description; the URL follows
>>>> below:
>>>>
>>>> "LXX Greek vocabulary list by frequency. One of the more frequent
>>>> questions I've been asked over the past few years is, "Where can I
>>>> find a vocabulary frequency list for the Septuagint?" I've not been
>>>> able to point to any such tool, so eventually I got around to making
>>>> a beginning attempt at offering such a tool...
>>>>         
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>       
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:39:32 -0500
>> From: "Ed Garcia" <Ed.Garcia at FHLBTopeka.com>
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Thank you -  Re: Homer
>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <DFA69C10957E914F8F3331BE941A36B5029E934A at srvtopeka15.FHLB10.COM>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> To George and Carl,
>>
>> Thank you for responding to my question concerning Homer's Iliad. You
>> were both a great help. This list is a great resource.
>>
>> Ed
>> Topeka, Kansas
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely
>> for the use of the intended recipient. The information contained
>> herein may be legally privileged, proprietary or subject to copyright
>> or trademark protection or may  constitute material, non-public
>> information regarding the sender, subject to protection under federal
>> or state law or regulations. If you are not the intended recipient,
>> be aware that any use, copying or distribution of this information
>> is strictly prohibited and may subject you to criminal or civil
>> penalties. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the
>> sender immediately by e-mail reply and delete this e-mail from your
>> computer. Thank you for your cooperation.
>> FEDERAL HOME LOAN BANK OF TOPEKA [FHLBInfo at fhlbtopeka.com]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> B-Greek mailing list
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>>
>> End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 41, Issue 10
>> ***************************************
>>
>>     
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