[B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios
Curtis Hinson
curtis at curtishinson.com
Sun Sep 3 02:42:00 EDT 2006
Γεια σου (GEIA SOU)
Regarding your thoughts here: I think it is problematic to limit any
author, of any language, to a monolithic use of a word, to one specific
use within the semantic range. I think it's a feature of human use of
language that we don't necessarily mean the exact same thing every
single time we use a word. For instance, in Hebrew, even important
words like ADONAI, EL, MOSHIAC, GOY, or in Greek words like IOUDAIOS can
mean different things even used within the same authors. It is a
problem that many translations flatten these words out, for instance to
make IOUDAIOS always mean "Jew" when sometimes it means "Judean, person
from Judea" creates an obvious disconnect.
Having said that broadly, specifically I will say that it makes no sense
to have the Samaritan woman in 4.11 calling Jesus "Lord" in the
religious sense of the word, when she doesn't even know who he is yet,
and she is skeptical of him. You don't just walk up to someone sitting
at a well and acknowledge them as divine. It would be severely
anachronistic of John if he meant it that way, but I don't think he
did. Can you present literary evidence that suggests John uses
anachronism in this way as a literary device? Now, my ex-girlfriend
called me "KURIE" from time to time when we spoke Greek. It looks to me
like the woman is merely extending formal courtesy to Jesus who is
clearly not a local.
What is much more interesting to me than KURIE here is that Jesus speaks
of TO UDWR TO ZWN. This is almost universally translated as "living
water", but I wonder if Jesus simply means "running water" as opposed to
"still water". This imagery comes up in the Didache 7, as important to
the community, and it may not be coincidental. Many translations of the
Didache render this as "living water" slavishly, even though it
obviously in this case refers to running water. It has a nice play of
words to it, but think of Isaiah 22 and of the first Psalm chapter 3.
Respectively the city has underground pools, and the tree is planted by
what may be an underground spring, like an oasis in the desert where all
around is desolate. The woman's reaction is rather like the desert to
the oasis: what source do you have then?
Bless the Name
Curtis Hinson
http://curtishinson.com
Dony K. Donev wrote the following on 9/2/2006 11:51 PM:
> While I do not wish to influence this discussion in any more directions that
> it has already gone, I would like to point out that perhaps focusing on the
> Johannine use of KURIE should be taken under consideration here. It is
> obvious for any one translating the Fourth Gospel from its beginning, that
> KURIE in reference to Jesus is used simply as LORD in John 1:23 and 4:1. It
> is contextually clear in these occasions that KURIE is to be translated
> LORD. There is no other option as far as the context is concerned.
>
>
>
> In John 4:11 perhaps the context is slightly changed with the Samaritan
> women, and then in 4:49 and may be even 5:7. However, there are no textual
> marks to suggest that KURIE should be translated any other as Lord. In John
> 6:23 there is a return to the unconditional translation of KURIE as Lord.
>
>
>
> My observation is that instead of using variations of the meaning of KURIE,
> John simply accepts the unconditional one through his writing. If there is
> no doubt that KURIE mans LORD in 1:23, 4:1 and 6:23, I think it is
> reasonable to suggest that this is the meaning of the word through the whole
> Fourth Gospel including the questioned 4:11 occurrence. There is simply
> nothing in the Greek text or in the author's intention to indicate any
> conditional adjustment of the meaning of the word KURIE.
>
>
>
> Dony K. Donev
>
> Yambol, BULGARIA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Ross" <woundedegomusic at gmail.com>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios
>
>
> There seems to be some indication in the scriptures that addressing
> someone as KURIE is an affirmation of their authority over you:
>
> Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
> which is in heaven.
>
> Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
>
> John 13:
> 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
> 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also
> ought to wash one another's feet.
> 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to
> you.
> 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than
> his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
> 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
>
> 1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being
> ensamples to the flock.
>
> At times it seems that the title is used emptied of any import other
> than politeness:
>
> John 12:
> 20 ¶ And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship
> at the feast:
> 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of
> Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir [KURIE], we would see Jesus.
>
> It is an interpretive issue based on context.
>
> William Ross
> VGB, Argentina
>
>
>
> On 9/1/06, frjsilver at optonline.net <frjsilver at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Friends --
>>
>> The scriptural KURIOS is informed by two separate semantic trends.
>>
>> In the Hebrew Bible, the Name of God is represented in consonants only,
>> but it is never pronounced; we don't know its authentic sound anyway, and
>> we're much safer for that.
>>
>> But whenever the Name appears, Jewish practice is to say either HA SHEM
>> ('The Name') or else `ADONAY (my Lord). As a result, the Jewish
>> translators of the Greek 70 pretty consistently rendered the Name as
>> KURIOS, and this, perforce, leaked into the Christian scriptures.
>>
>> So there's no question that a couple of centuries BC, the designation
>> KURIOS was invested with great reverence by Hellenistic Jews, at least.
>> This is one of the Jewish problems with the Christian scriptures, I
>> suppose: that Jesus Christ shares the euphemism of the divine Name.
>>
>> All that notwithstanding, Greek-speaking women (when they're being
>> polite), to this day refer to their husbands as KURIOS and address them as
>> KURIE. In strictly Modern Greek parlance, KURIOS means simply 'mister',
>> but it's still considered honorific.
>>
>> Among us orthodox Christians, bishops are often referred to as KUR, an as
>> yet unexplained (to me, at least) apocopation.
>>
>> I hope this helps a little.
>>
>> Peace and blessings to all.
>>
>> Father James Silver
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: James Becknell
>> Date: Friday, September 1, 2006 12:18 pm
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>
>>
>>> I am interested to know if anyone understands why kurios is
>>> rendered as
>>> sir in John 4:11? I understand its use as a title for the
>>> purpose of
>>> formal address, but I was wondering how it is concluded that the
>>> Samaritan woman is not referring to Jesus as lord, but as sir? Are
>>> there any other places where this is brought out into English as sir?
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
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>>>
>> ---
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>>
>
>
>
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