[B-Greek] Rev 7:4

Juan Stam juanstam at ice.co.cr
Mon Apr 2 23:50:53 EDT 2007


	
The very important tribe of Ephrain is also omitted, though curiously his
father Joseph (never a tribe) is included. As to Dan, although Testament of
Dan speaks of the apostasy of Dan, it also tells of their repentance and
restoration. In the list of tribal territories in Ezek 48 (supposedly
eschatological in the thought of Ezekiel), the tribe of Dan is in first
place.

Juan Stam, Costa Rica

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Lunes, 02 de Abril de 2007 09:39 p.m.
To: Andrew Witelde; B-Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 7:4

I think the answer to your dilemma is to be found in the preceding verse

LEGWN, MH ADIKHSHTE THN GHN MHTE THN QALASSAN MHTE TA DENTRA, AXRI
SFRAGISWMEN TOUS DOULOUS TOU QEOU hHMWN EPI TWN METWPWN AUTWN

It is the "servants of God" which are sealed.  Does this mean all Israel?
Maybe, maybe not.  It is nevertheless the SERVANTS OF GOD which are sealed.
It has already been noted that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned, but that
is not particularly surprising and can be explained on the basis of certain
non-canonical writings.  In any event, there is a fluidity to the precise
tribes included in Israel though the number is always 12.  You might read
Martin Noth's work _Das System der zwölf Stämme Israels_ or his _The History
of Israel_ regarding this.  There are, of course, problems with this view.
There is a discussion of Noth and the issues related to the amphyctyony
under "Amphyctyony" in the _Anchor Bible Dictionary_ which you might read
for a short overview.
 
george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew Witelde <adslkq7b at tpg.com.au>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; B-Greek
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 11:24:11 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 7:4


No, no. I'm trying to discern whether the 144,000 are "taken out of Israel,
thus leaving others 
behind in Israel" or the 144,000 "are Israel, thus Israel as a whole numbers
144,000".

Quoting George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>:

> EK can be partitive. Note the usage in Mt 26.73
> 
> META MIKRON DE PROSELQONTES hOI ESTWTES EIPON TWi PETRWi, "ALHQWS KAI
> SU EC AUTWN EI, KAI GAR hH LALIA SOU DHLON SE POIEI.  
> 
> If you are trying to use that to make the number greater than
> 144,000, however, you are going against the clear statement of the
> passage.
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Andrew Witelde <adslkq7b at tpg.com.au>
> To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 11:12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 7:4
> 
> 
> Does EK imply "all of" or "part of" or neither (or both)?
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