[B-Greek] Rev 7:4

Andrew Witelde adslkq7b at tpg.com.au
Mon Apr 2 23:52:41 EDT 2007


Assuming that "Israel" was figurative, that is not literally Israel, would the 144,000 be all of this 
figurative Israel, or a portion of it (based on grammar)?

> I think the answer to your dilemma is to be found in the preceding
> verse
> 
> LEGWN, MH ADIKHSHTE THN GHN MHTE THN QALASSAN MHTE TA DENTRA, AXRI
> SFRAGISWMEN TOUS DOULOUS TOU QEOU hHMWN EPI TWN METWPWN AUTWN
> 
> It is the "servants of God" which are sealed.  Does this mean all
> Israel?  Maybe, maybe not.  It is nevertheless the SERVANTS OF GOD
> which are sealed.  It has already been noted that the tribe of Dan is
> not mentioned, but that is not particularly surprising and can be
> explained on the basis of certain non-canonical writings.  In any
> event, there is a fluidity to the precise tribes included in Israel
> though the number is always 12.  You might read Martin Noth's work
> _Das System der zwölf Stämme Israels_ or his _The History of Israel_
> regarding this.  There are, of course, problems with this view. 
> There is a discussion of Noth and the issues related to the
> amphyctyony under "Amphyctyony" in the _Anchor Bible Dictionary_
> which you might read for a short overview.
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Andrew Witelde <adslkq7b at tpg.com.au>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; B-Greek
> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 11:24:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 7:4
> 
> 
> No, no. I'm trying to discern whether the 144,000 are "taken out of
> Israel, thus leaving others 
> behind in Israel" or the 144,000 "are Israel, thus Israel as a whole
> numbers 144,000".
> 
> Quoting George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>:
> 
> > EK can be partitive. Note the usage in Mt 26.73
> > 
> > META MIKRON DE PROSELQONTES hOI ESTWTES EIPON TWi PETRWi, "ALHQWS
> KAI
> > SU EC AUTWN EI, KAI GAR hH LALIA SOU DHLON SE POIEI.  
> > 
> > If you are trying to use that to make the number greater than
> > 144,000, however, you are going against the clear statement of the
> > passage.
> >  
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> > _________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Andrew Witelde <adslkq7b at tpg.com.au>
> > To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 11:12:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 7:4
> > 
> > 
> > Does EK imply "all of" or "part of" or neither (or both)?
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> 
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> 
>  
> 
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