[B-Greek] Col1:6,9: AF hHS hHMERAS

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Apr 7 13:53:44 EDT 2007


----- Original Message ----- 
>>
>>It seems to me that the fronted placement of the relative pronoun was well explained by Martin 
>>Culy.
>>It is helpful to remember that the Greek relative pronoun often has an implicit demonstrative 
>>sense.
>>
>>In Col 1:6 it was AF hHS hHMERAS HKOUSATE - from (that very) day in which you heard
>>
>>Similar constructions are found in 2 Cor 2:3 AF hWN EDEI ME CAIREIN - from (those same people) who
>>should make me happy
>>
>>and
>>
>>Heb 5:8 AF hWN EPAQEN - from (those very things) which he suffered
>>
>>Iver Larsen

Carl Conrad:

> Just a couple comments.
>
> (1) I think I would agree with Martin Culy's account of
> the construction in Col 1:6 (and I don't think he would have objected to his
> message reaching the entire list although we have a rule that an off-list
> message should not be posted to the list without the original sender's
> express permission);
>
> (2) I think that the usage in 2 Cor 2:3 and Heb 5:8 is different in that there isn't
> an explicit noun cited but rather there's a clearly discernible implicit antecedent;

I agree, and I probably shouldn't have used the word "similar". What I was thinking of in terms of 
similarity was not the syntax, but that I see an implicit demonstrative sense in the use of the 
relative pronoun in these examples. In the last two the noun is implicit (people, things). The 
demonstrative is often used with an implicit head noun. Whether the implicit noun would have 
appeared before or after the relative pronoun if it had been explicit, I can't tell.

>
> (3) Culy calls this an "internally-headed relative clause" and says that it is rare
> among human languages; I don't know enough languages to judge that, but
> I have noticed that it's found in Latin -- I've seen it especially in Propertius, where
> I suspect that it derives from the more colloquial ('vulgar') Latin usage -- and
> I've called attention to that previously -- but not recently -- and I can't find that
> reference readily from where I am now;

Thank you for the Latin background.

>
> (4) It is true that the Greek relative pronoun and the definite article hO/hH/TO
> derive from old weak demonstrative pronouns and that we occasionally see
> hOS EIPEN or the like where the hOS is a surviving form of that old demonstrative,
> I don't think I'd call the relative pronoun (or adjective, I guess it is, when used
> to qualify a noun) a demonstrative (like Latin qui/quae/quod introducing a new
> sentence); rather, I think that hHS in AF' hHS hHMERAS HKOUSATE still is
> fundamentally a relative pronoun.

I agree that it is fundamentally a relative pronoun that has been moved in front of the noun it 
modifies. But I have seen a number of examples where the relative pronoun in addition to its 
function as such seems to have an implicit, additional demonstrative sense, possibly because of the 
historical development.

Iver Larsen

>
> Carl W. Conrad 




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