[B-Greek] PNEUMATI THEOU: Meaning of Genitive
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Apr 17 22:36:36 EDT 2007
I was not maintaining that the use of a genitive indicates that it is the same entity. What I was maintaining and continue to maintain is that the use of the genitive does not thereby indicate a separate entity though it may. I could find uses where it is unquestionable that the genitive does not indicate a separate entity. I can also find instances where there is a clear distinction between the entity indicated by the genitive and that to which the genitive refers. The point is that it is a poor argument to maintain that because a genitive is used there are thereby two entities or even a distinguishable part of an entity. This is grammatical over-reaching. So, no, I do not agree with you.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Deborah Millier <deborahmillier at yahoo.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:38:11 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] PNEUMATI THEOU: Meaning of Genitive
Hi B-Greek Listers!
Jerry Reimer wrote:
> It is the expositor/exegete's decision
> as to what the function of the genitive
> case is in any given context. Thus,
> eventually, it is largely if not entirely
> a subjective matter and the theological
> agenda of the translator will generally
> come through.
Hi Jerry. Your comments only speak to the matter of
distinguishing between, say, a genitive of possession
and/or a genitive of origin. Etc. I disagree that even
that is a primarily subjective matter, although I
agree that subjectivity may come into play in
especially nuanced distinctions.
However, as far as the logic of language is concerned,
it is safe to say that ALL genitives AUTOMATICALLY
distinguish between one thing and
another(s), or else there would be no point of
reference/comparison. All genitives basically fall
into this formula: Y of X. Therefore Y is in
relationship to X and cannot logically be exactly the
same thing.
Do you see the point now?
George Somsel wrote:
> If one maintains that the Spirit here
> must be distinct from God, how
> then would he understand 1 Cor 2.11
>
> TIS GAR OIDEN ANQRWPWN TA TOU ANQRWPOU
> EI MN TO PNEUMA TOU ANQRWPOU TO EN AUTWi
Hi George. I am pretty sure from your past postings
that you believe that the Bible generally purports
some sort of distinction between the Spirit and God
(hence "PNEUMATI THEOU"). In other words PNEUMATI
THEOU does not mean "The Spirit Who is It/Himself
God."
What you may have [mis]understood from Laurence's
initial post on this thread is that the other party in
his dialog (me) was claiming that the Spirit is not
Deity or organically related to God-proper. That is
not at all my claim. Actually, in Laurence's and my
dialog, I am claiming some sort of a distinction as in
the form of a subdivision of..., a component of...,
that which is possessed by..., etc. (Typical genitive
stuff.) But not two completly different entities
without organic relation to each other. This is a
linguistic matter more than a theological one.
So, going back to your (George's) illustration of a
person's hand and the person, one could say that the
hand is a component of the person. But if the hand
were removed, the person would not cease to exist.
Therefore, the hand (Y) is in relationship to the
person (X), but not exactly the person. It is the hand
*of* the person, the Y *of* the X, that is in view.
Would you agree in essence with that formulation,
George?
Shalom from Manila,
--Michael Millier
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