[B-Greek] CH Dodd quoting the Corpus Hermeticum

yancywsmith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Sat Aug 4 19:47:22 EDT 2007


I am thankful for the kind questioning of my translation, which I did  
with an almost total lack of familiarity with CH. Dr. Conrad raises  
two questions, though there could be more, about my translation.

> (a) the subject of FANHSETAI,

I am in total agreement as well that the implicit subject of  
FANHSETAI is an implicit LOGOS. I guess that is not clear from my  
translation, though that is what I intended. My apologies.

> and (b) the translation of the snippet discussed by Dodd in his  
> article

I think Dr. Conrad has the better argument on the function of καὶ  
τοῖς ἐμοῖς ἐνίοις λόγοις. Though, whether the  
phrase is adverbially modifying FANHSETAI or ANTIFWNOS seems to me to  
come nearly to the same thing. If by his own previously written  
words, the message Asklepios sent out sounds a contrary note (causal  
construal), then it sounded that note to things he had said  
(comparative reference), and vice versa.

> It would seem then that Dodd understands the snippet in question as  
> acknowledging the internal contradiction.

I completely agree. Doesn't the appeal in this paragraph ask for the  
reader to discern the person of Asklepios and allow that personal  
encounter to guide mystical interpretation through the writings and  
not focus on the incidental contrarieties? The additional information  
larger context of Corpus Hermeticum is, of course, very helpful. Thanks.

Yancy and Lanette Smith
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
5636 Wedgworth Rd.
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565




On Aug 4, 2007, at 10:24 AM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:

>
> On Aug 4, 2007, at 7:29 AM, yancywsmith wrote:
>
>> The translation I gave was strictly mine, so it has not hidden
>> "authority."
>
> It helps to know that it; I had wondered whether this was one of  
> the common published translations, and evidently there's some  
> difference of opinion about the sense of the snippet about which  
> Stephen Baldwin originally asked. I find Yancy's view questionable  
> here in two respects, (a) the subject of FANHSETAI, and (b) the  
> translation of the snippet discussed by Dodd in his article.
>
> Let me repeat the text in context from Yancy's citation from TLG:
>
>>>> MEGAN SOI TON LOGON, W BASILEU, DIEPEMYAMHN PANTWN TWN ALLWN   
>>>> hWSPER KORUFHN KAI hUPOMNHMA, OU KATA THN TWN POLLWN DOXAN   
>>>> SUGKEIMENON, ECONTA DE POLLHN EKEINOIS ANTIDEIXIN: FANHSETAI  
>>>> GAR  SOI KAI TOIS EMOIS ENIOIS LOGOIS ANTIFWNOS
>
> (1) LOGON, the object of the verb DIEPEMYAMHN, has KORUFHN and  
> hUPOMNHMA as appositives (with qualifying hWSPER), is described by  
> participial phrases headed by SUGKEIMENON and ECONTA; inasmuch as  
> ANTIFWNOS is predicate adjective construing with FANHSETAI, and, as  
> Stephen noted, it is masculine singular, it would seem to me that  
> the implicit subject of FANHSETAI ANTIFWNOS must be LOGOS as  
> described in what immediately precedes.
>
> (2) FANHSETAI GAR  SOI KAI TOIS EMOIS ENIOIS LOGOIS ANTIFWNOS
>
> Yancy: "Indeed by some of my own words it will appear  
> contradictory  to you."
> My own version: "In fact it will appear to you contradictory even  
> to some of my own assertions."
>
> ἀντίφωνος (ANTIFWNOS) is listed in LSJ as (1) sounding in  
> answer, concordant (as in the octave), (2) discordant,  
> contradictory; on this there's no disagreement; the problem seems  
> rather with understanding the dative expression KAI TOIS EMOIS  
> LOGOIS; it seems to me that this must construe with ANTIFWNOS,  
> "contradictory even to some of my own assertions." That's  
> understanding the dative not instrumentally but as a true dative  
> ("reference" if you will; Wheeler: "Object to which the Verbal idea  
> applies, operates, or becomes valid." Yancy has taken it rather as  
> an instrumental dative ("cause"?).
>
> I think that Dodd in the article originally read by Stephen,  
> understood this sense too. I cite the text (James Ernest supplied  
> me kindly with a scan of the page in question):
>
> "Most of the writings of the Corpus are in the form of dialogues,  
> in which the interlocutors are generally Hermes Trismegistus and  
> one or other of his sons Tat and Asklepios. the teachings of the  
> various libelli, though in general based upon the popular mixture  
> of Stoicism and Platonism, are not uniform. In some points they  
> contradict one another. This fact was observed by some of the later  
> writers. Thus in C.H. xvi.1 Asklepios writes to King Ammon,  
> φανήσεται γάρ σοι καὶ τοῖς ἐμοῖς  
> ἐνίοις λόγοις ἀντίφωνος (FANHSETAI GAR SOI  
> KAI TOIS EMOIS ENIOIS LOGIOS ANTIFWNOS ..."
>
> to which he adds this footnote:
>
> "Scott rejects this sentence, without sufficient reasons, as far as  
> I can see. He also says ἀντίφωνος (ANTIFWNOS) means  
> 'sounding in response' and not 'discordant'. But Liddell and Scott  
> recognizes the meaning 'discordant' here and in other passages.  
> Nock and Festugière do not question the authenticity of the  
> sentence, but think it may be no more than a commonplace, while  
> admitting the possibility of the meaning given above, which still  
> seems to me most probable."
>
> It would seem then that Dodd understands the snippet in question as  
> acknowledging the internal contradiction.
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> The Greek text was taken from  TLG. The "it" you are
>> referring to is sometimes called "impersonal," but there is probably
>> another label given to impersonal 3 p subjects of natural phenomena.
>> Don't remember it at the moment.
>>
>> Yancy and Lanette Smith
>> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
>> 5636 Wedgworth Rd.
>> Fort Worth, TX 76133
>> 817-361-7565
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2007, at 8:56 PM, Stephen Baldwin wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Yancy:
>>> Thanks for that additional input. Thanks too Dr. Conrad for your
>>> response.
>>> So at least from the tranlsation from your book, the "it" (or 3rd
>>> singular FANHSETAI) is the nebulous "it" per "it is raining" rather
>>> than "he" referring to Hermes (ANTIFWNOS is masculine is it not?)
>>> (Incidentally, just curious, does this kind of "it" [as in "it is
>>> raining"] have a technical term?)
>>>
>>> This CH excerpt is quoted in Dodd (along with many others) as he
>>> sets the Hellenistic background for his case for John (chapter
>>> entitled Hermetic Literature.)
>>>
>>> Rgds
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Stephen Baldwin
>>> stbaldwi at hotmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Reply-To: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] CH Dodd quoting the Corpus Hermeticum
>>>> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>
>>>> I sent this off list to Stephen, but thought it might help on
>>>> getting a bit more context for the passage. The passage is from
>>>> hOROI ASKLHPIOU PROS AMMWNA BASILE/A 1.1 A.-J. Festugière and
>>>> A.D. Nock, Corpus Hermeticum, vol. 2. Paris: Les Belles Lettres,
>>>> 1946 (repr. 1973):
>>>>
>>>> I don't have Dodd at the moment to check, but this is probably
>>>> used to illuminate John 5:37-40, I guess?
>>>>
>>>> MEGAN SOI TON LOGON, W BASILEU, DIEPEMYAMHN PANTWN TWN ALLWN
>>>> hWSPER KORUFHN KAI hUPOMNHMA, OU KATA THN TWN POLLWN DOXAN
>>>> SUGKEIMENON, ECONTA DE POLLHN EKEINOIS ANTIDEIXIN: FANHSETAI GAR
>>>> SOI KAI TOIS EMOIS ENIOIS LOGOIS ANTIFWNOS. hERMHS MEN GAR hO
>>>> DIDASKALOS (5) MOU, POLLAKIS MOI DIALEGOMENOS KAI IDIAi KAI TOU
>>>> TAT ENIOTE PARONTOS, ELEGEN hOTI DOXEI TOIS ENTUGCANOUSI MOU
>>>> TOIS BIBLIOIS hAPLOUSTATH EINAI hH SUNTAXIS KAI SAFHS, EK DE TWN
>>>> ENANTIWN ASAFHS OUSA KAI KEKRUMMENON TON NOUN TWN LOGWN ECOUSA,
>>>> KAI ETI ASAFESTATH, TWN hELLHNWN (10) hUSTERON BOULHQENTWN THN
>>>> hHMETERAN DIALEKTON EIS THN IDIAN MEQERMHNEUSAI, OPER ESTAI TWN
>>>> GEGRAMMENWN MEGISTH  DIASTROFH TE KAI ASAFEIA.
>>>>
>>>> O king, great is the message I published, it is like the crowning
>>>> memorial of all the others, it is not, however, in agreement with
>>>> the opinion of most people, and encounters great opposition among
>>>> them. Indeed by some of my own words it will appear contradictory
>>>> to you. For Hermes is my teacher. He often converses with me both
>>>> alone and sometimes with [his son] Tat present, he said that the
>>>> meaning [of the message] will be to those who find me in the books
>>>> very simple  and straight forward, but from the contradictory
>>>> things [they find] it will be unclear, indeed with the mind hidden
>>>> from the words, and still most obscure, when the Greeks desire
>>>> later to interpret our discussion for private use, it will become
>>>> of things written the greatest distortion and obscurity.
>>>>
>>>> Yancy Smith
>>>> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
>>>> 5636 Wedgworth Rd.
>>>> Fort Worth, TX 76133
>>>> 817-361-7565
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Stephen Baldwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brethren:
>>>> continuing (from Schurer) my penchant for reading authors who make
>>>> claims on
>>>> my modicum of greek knowledge, I was wondering whether someone
>>>> might be kind
>>>> enough to clarify my elementary understanding.
>>>> Dodd ("...Fourth Gospel" p13) quotes the CH thus:
>>>> Asklepios to King Ammon: FANHSETAI GAR SOI KAI TOIS EMOIS ENIOIS
>>>> LOGOIS
>>>> ANTIFWNOS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I originally looked at this and thought that Asklepios said "For
>>>> it will be
>>>> visible (clear?) to you [that] also some of my words are
>>>> contradictory" but
>>>> ANTIFWNOS is not modifying "some of my words" since it does not
>>>> agree in
>>>> case and number.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I now think he is saying "...He (Hermes, the main author of the
>>>> CH) will be
>>>> seen contradictory to you as well as some of my own
>>>> words" (apologies for
>>>> the clumsy translation but I think you get the gist...).
>>>> That is, ANTIFWNOS is qualifying the implied 3S in FANHSETAI --
>>>> correct?
>>>> Thus it is that both Hermes and Asklepios have contradictions in
>>>> their
>>>> writings ("words" or whatever)...?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All corrections welcomed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Baldwin
>>>> stbaldwi at hotmail.com




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