[B-Greek] BBG: appendix Errors, Good MI verbs

Stephen Baldwin stbaldwi at hotmail.com
Mon Aug 6 19:30:12 EDT 2007


Dr. Buth:
I'd like to understand what you are saying here.
(And I thought I was merely posing a question about a possible error in a 
book... :-))


>From: "Randall Buth" <randallbuth at gmail.com>
>To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Subject: [B-Greek] BBG: appendix Errors, Good MI verbs
>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:58:38 +0300
>
> >>I am somewhat puzzled that in a book titled _Basics of Biblical
>Greek_ Mounce would include a form which does not appear in the NT or
>even in the LXX. >>
>
>actually, the form ESTANAI needs to come up front and center. This
>picks up and illustrates another thread on MI verbs from last week.
>
>Students should know how to say 'to stand' and to understand it in speech.
>ESTANAI is one of those most basic words that a student cannot do without.
>How can someone learn beginning Greek and not be able to say to themselves
>"I don't want to stand, I need to sit"?
>pretty basic:
>OU QELW ESTANAI, DEI ME KAQISAI (KAQHSQAI also good).
>
>and incidently ESTANAI occurs 3xx in GNT, (not to mention LXX,
>Josephus, and everywhere someone writes enough Greek to say "to
>stand")
>I recommend teaching Greek so that students can at least STAND or SIT in 
>Greek.

Is anyone suggesting that we shouldn't? (altho' people on this foruim study 
greek for all sorts of diverse reasons).
I am reminded of a similar conversation on this forum a few months ago when 
a particular teaching method (can't remember which one unfortunately) was 
being expounded as being the true[ish] way.
An astute question [IMHO] was then posed that since it is not clear that any 
of the commentators of old had undergone this method, should we therefore 
look on their scholarship with suspicion?
(Not sure whether there was ever a reply to it).

Anyway, to the matter in hand...

>
>PS: the form belongs to the PARAKEIMENOS (perfect) but as a "second"
>perfect it does not need to distinguish DIAQESEIS (voices). BBG is
>technically wrong to call it middle-passive, but It is irrelevant to
>call it 'active', it is functionally rather 'middle' and intransitive,
>by its nature of existing as a 2 perfect. Semantically it functions
>like ENESTWS (present tense) and/or PARATATIKH OPSIS (imperfective
>aspect)

Could you clarify what you mean?
I speak as a [largely] ignorant layman here, but when we put labels on 
lexical forms (as the grammars do), it has never been my impression that 
they are making dogmatic statements about all
the possible uses of the form (as you yourself indicate below); Clearly the 
labels bear some relation to their object, but everyone knows (don't they?) 
that e.g. an infinitive has a variety of roles and its precise meaning is to 
an extent fixed by its context.
But to take these positions to an extreme would be ludicrous would it not?
At one end we might have e.g. "the present active infinitive always means x 
and only x" and at the other, if I were to say "please write down for me the 
present-active-infinitive of LUW", I would not be too impressed if the reply 
was "I can't do it  unless I see its context"!
It is surely both-and rather than  either-or and a degree of "blurredness" 
is the price we have to pay for having comprehensible lexical labels.

>
>Cf Lk 13:25 ESTANAI KAI KROUEIN THN QURAN.
>standing and knocking on the door
>
>Ac 12:14 APHGGEILEN ESTANAI TON PETRON PRO TOU PULWNOS
>reported that Peter was standing outside the the gate
>
>1Cor 10:12 >the one thinking to be standing should be careful that he not 
>fall.
>
>
>Things may look different when viewed by usage rather than by paradigm.

Again, I don't think anyone would argue with this statement (would they?)

Trusting that my ramblings make some sense

Rgds
Steve

Stephen Baldwin
stbaldwi at hotmail.com

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