[B-Greek] Titus 2:11

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Aug 18 09:39:46 EDT 2007


Sorry, on the contrary: I think that SWTHRIOS is predicative -- which  
is why I indicated that I thought the hH before SWTHRIOS is not there  
in the earlier tradition, although it is in TR and MT. What I said  
was that, if SWTHRIOS actually WERE attributive, then it ought to  
have the article before it. hH would indeed make it attributive.

Carl

On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:27 AM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:

> Dear Friends --
>
> I thank Carl Conrad for his insights, which got me thinking again.
>
> In this statement, slightly modified to amplify the grammar as I  
> feel it, the difference between my reading and Dr Conrad's is that  
> he takes the adjective as attributive, whereas (on second thought)  
> I now realize that I regard it as predicative:
>
> EPEFANH GAR hH XARIS TOU QEOU (hH XARIS hH) SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS
>
> 'The grace of God shone forth, (that grace which is) salutary for  
> all human beings.'
>
> Were I to feel it as attributive, I would not have added the second  
> hH in this expanded theoretical text;  MG does the same thing more  
> concisely.
>
> And it comes as no surprise that the MG translation reflects this,  
> not only because the elliptic possibilities are more easily  
> appreciated in the more highly inflected forms available to Greek,  
> but also because it is, after all, their language.
>
> As an aside, we use this text for the Communion Hymn (KOINONIKON)  
> for the Lord's Theophany (Baptism by John) on 6 January each year,  
> a feast we affectionately call in Greek TA FOTA.
>
> Anyway, I think I'll stick with my original reading.
>
> Peace and blessings to all.
>
> Father James
>
> Monk James Silver
> Orthodox Church in America
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad"
> Date: Friday, August 17, 2007 5:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 2:11
> To: frjsilver at optonline.net
> Cc: Denise Parkes , b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>
>>
>> On Aug 17, 2007, at 11:53 AM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Friends --
>>>
>>> This seems to me to be a clear case of -- what can I call it
>> in
>>> English? -- maybe an 'elliptic referent'?
>>> It's not all that complicated or in need of elaborate explanations.
>>>
>>> I read this line as saying:
>>>
>>> EPEFANH GAR H CARIS TOU QEOU (H CARIS H) SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS.
>>>
>>> Imagine the speaker pausing after QEOU, and maybe you can
>> 'feel' it
>>> as I do.
>>>
>>> Does that help?
>>
>> Unfortunately, I think it begs the fact (petitio principii); it
>> assumes that SWTHRIOS is attributive to CARIS. It's true enough
>> that
>> some interpreters have read it this way, -- I see this in the
>> UMG
>> Modern Greek version:
>>
>> DIOTI EFANERWQH H CARIS TOU QEOU H SWTHRIOS EIS PANTAS ANQRWPOUS.
>>
>> and it reflects the TR and the MT,
>>
>> EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU hH SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS
>>
>> which accounts for the KJV version, "For the grace of God that
>> bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
>>
>> I certainly would have expected that article (hH) before
>> SWTHRIOS if
>> it is to be understood as attributive, But it doesn't seem to be
>>
>> there in the older MSS.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Denise Parkes
>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:01 pm
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Titus 2:11
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>
>>>> Titus 2:11: EPEFANH GAR H XARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS.
>>>>
>>>> This verse seems to be straitforward. Both the NASB and the RSV
>>>> translate
>>>> this verse thus: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing
>>>> salvation to
>>>> all men.
>>>>
>>>> But the NIV and the KJV add the word "that" to give a different
>>>> meaning ie:
>>>> For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to
>> all men.
>>>>
>>>> This NIV/KJV translation seems awkward, especially when the word
>>>> "that" has
>>>> to be added to make it work.
>>>>
>>>> Is there ambiguity in the original Greek?
>>>>
>>>> Looking forward to your help,
>>>>
>>>> Denise Parkes
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>>
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