[B-Greek] Online teaching tools

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Dec 8 13:23:32 EST 2007


Unless there is the use of word play of some type in the text, I doubt that you are going to achieve any better understanding of the text using either approach.  I think immediately of Amos 8.1-3 (I give the text in English, but I will explain my point)

 
8 This is what the Lord God showed me—a basket of summer fruit. 2 He said, “Amos, what do you see?” And I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the Lord said to me, 
“The end has come upon my people Israel; 
I will never again pass them by. 
3     The songs of the temple shall become wailings in that day,” 
says the Lord God; 
“the dead bodies shall be many, 
cast out in every place. Be silent!” 
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Am 8:1-3). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Here there is a play on words involved.  The word for 
"end" (קֵץ Q"C or qeits) sounds very much like the word for "summer fruit" (קַיִץ QaYiC or qayits).  Here the English reader will miss the point unless someone happens to explain it. There can be various forms and degrees of wordplay, but otherwise I don't think that there is any reason to suppose that any greater meaning is derived simply from listening to a correct pronunciation.  Other benefits from learning the original language of a text seem to lie more on a lexical level.

To Sarah:

Of course I was kidding.  Where would I get such a tradition?  I don't know whether the Greeks had some simple lexicon, but I would be surprised if they did not.  We do know of some bi-lingual examples of word lists.  Perhaps Carl or Randall knows more about this.

 
george
gfsomsel
 
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.
 
- Jan Hus
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Eric Inman <eric.inman at wescorpflex.com>
To: Sarah Madden <sarah.r.madden at gmail.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2007 11:31:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Online teaching tools

Sarah,



Your approach sounds fairly similar to what I've been doing. Here's the
question though: if you use that approach with the Erasmian pronounciation,
will you get as accuarate an understanding of the text as you would if you
used that approach with a more authentic pronounciation?



Eric Inman



  _____  

From: Sarah Madden [mailto:sarah.r.madden at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 10:15 AM
To: Eric Inman
Cc: Carl Conrad; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Online teaching tools



Eric --

I'm glad you reminded us of the reason we are studying NT Greek in the first
place: to better understand the Greek text. With that said, whenever I read
aloud, I attempt to be aware of the meaning of the sentence, and the phrases
that hang together, and the lilt of the voice at the end of a question --
just as one does with English. When reading Greek aloud, I believe it also
helps to be consistent in stressing the accented syllables -- in fact, a
Greek immigrant recently told me that speaking Greek well is "all in the
accents."  I don't intentionally set out to memorize the accents on most
words (except, of course, accents, relative pronouns, easily confused small
words, and such), but I make it a habit to stress the accented syllable
whenever I read it. Then it really does come alive like a living language to
me. 


Sarah

On Dec 8, 2007 10:57 AM, Eric Inman <eric.inman at wescorpflex.com> wrote:

Thank you for your response. In addition, I would be interested in the
thoughts of you and others on the main point I was trying to make. My main 
concern is not whether a certain pronounciation sounds nicer or makes
learning Greek easier. Rather I'm concerned about the fact that a more
authentic pronounciation might tend to produce a more accurate understanding

of a text. This is based on the assumption that some choices that were made
in writing and editing the text would likely have been based on how certain
words and phrases sounded. This might especially be true in cases where 
there are plays on words, but I think it might be generally true as well.
I'm wondering how big a factor people might think this is.

If it is true that a more authentic pronounciation in the ear of the reader 
tends to produce a more accurate understanding of a text, then I would think
that this would be the overriding factor in choosing a pronounciation
system. If it does make learning more difficult, we would have to remember 
why most of us want to learn NTG in the first place. It's to improve our
understanding of the Greek text.


Eric Inman

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto: <mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org>
b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Madden

Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 8:28 AM
To: Carl Conrad
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Online teaching tools



to Eric Inman--
Re. your comment about the "sounds" of modern (or Koine) Greek. You are
absolutely right that they sound wonderful and fluid (I have heard NT
texts read using the modern pronunciation)! One person I know has learned 
how to read NT Greek texts with both types of pronunciations (the Erasmian
so he can be understand by professors and fellow students, and the modern --
possibly authentic -- so he can enjoy a very "Greeky" sound). Another 
student, whom I tutor and mentor in NT Greek, has a strong background in
modern Greek because of her family background and having lived in Greece,
yet is struggling with how to spell the words or with a word's grammatical 
function -- precisely because the non-Erasmian pronunciation she is used to
hearing and saying does not help her with grammar or word spelling -- and
the modern pronunciation certainly isn't helping her with learning the 
vocabulary.

--Sarah Madden

Responding to your initial question, I learned NTG with the Erasmian
pronounciation, which I imagine made the process much easier, but I am now
concerned by the fact that when I read a text my sense of the text might not

be as accurate as it would be if I had been taught a more authentic
pronounciation. I believe that the sound of a language plays a role to some
degree in the choices of words, phrases, structures, patterns, etc. in a 
text, and I am concerned that I might be missing or misinterpreting cues in
the text that have some connection with how the text sounded originally.

Eric Inman

On Dec 8, 2007 8:09 AM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

> On Dec 8, 2007, at 5:57 AM, Sarah Madden wrote:
>
> > Unless one is speaking with or listening to modern Greek speakers,
> > or listening to Greek Orthodox sermons, I'm interested in knowing 
> > what the advantage (if any) is to most students of NT Greek to learn
> > the modern pronunciation? I personally like the fact that Erasmus
> > came up with a method that helps identify words by their sounds -- 
> > every letter is pronounced, and the vowels each have their own
> > sounds. My experience with mentoring students is that the ones who
> > know modern Greek (either because of living in Greece or by getting 
> > an audio tape and learning it) might be able to read the text, but
> > their spelling and recognition/understanding of the nuances between
> > particular words (e.g., hWS versus hOS) is weak. Any thoughts? 






-- 
Sarah
sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
work: 301.429.8189 

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