[B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21
Timothy Mitchell
taztimmitchell at hotmail.com
Sun Dec 30 21:06:34 EST 2007
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 George wrote,
I just realized that perhaps I was not sufficiently clear in what I wrote. When I said "He only uses the 2nd person again when referencing the hypothetical speech of TO PLASMA" this is not in speech addressed ** TO HIS INTERLOCUTOR ** but rather in speech addressed ** TO GOD ** and attributed to an interlocutor. Thus, when Paul returns to the use of the 2nd person, the referent is now God rather than his hypothetical interlocutor.In response I have written;
Thank you again for your comments! I appreciate your answers, but perhaps I should phrase my question in the terminology you have used;
Should Romans 9:21 be included in the hypothetical speech of the TO PLASMA, the speech that is (hypothetically) addressed to God in 9:20? I ask this because of the use of "H" at the beginning of 9:21 to connect the thoughts (or continuing quotation) to the TO PLASMA in 9:20. It just seems to me that "EI DE" at the beginning of 9:22 is the more logical end of the quotation and the start of a new thought.
Thank you again for your time, I realize that I may be asking a confusing question that is not clear!
Happy New Year!
Tim
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:51:07 -0800From: gfsomsel at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21To: gfsomsel at yahoo.com; taztimmitchell at hotmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
I just realized that perhaps I was not sufficiently clear in what I wrote. When I said "He only uses the 2nd person again when referencing the hypothetical speech of TO PLASMA" this is not in speech addressed ** TO HIS INTERLOCUTOR ** but rather in speech addressed ** TO GOD ** and attributed to an interlocutor. Thus, when Paul returns to the use of the 2nd person, the referent is now God rather than his hypothetical interlocutor. georgegfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus_________
----- Original Message ----From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Timothy Mitchell <taztimmitchell at hotmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:39:48 AMSubject: Re: [B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21As I stated in my previous reply to your question, it ends with ANQISTHKEN since Paul then begins to use the 3rd person in reply to his hypothetical interlocutor. He only uses the 2nd person again when referencing the hypothetical speech of TO PLASMA. While this might be taken as a reference to his hypothetical respondent, it need not be a direct reference to him specifically but as a member of a class.georgegfsomselTherefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________----- Original Message ----From: Timothy Mitchell <taztimmitchell at hotmail.com>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:51:49 PMSubject: Re: [B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 George wrote;I think that the actual (hypothetical) quotation only includes [TI [[OUN]] ETI MEMFETAI? TWi GAR BOULHMATI AUTOU TIS ANQESTHKEN? Note that in this he uses the 2nd person whereas in what follows he uses 3rd person [MH EREI TO PLASANTI]. When he does return to 2nd person it is as a second quotation (again hypothetical) used in the context of his response in which the entity (as opposed to his interlocutor) ["TI ME EPOIHSAS hOUTWS?"]. In response to this I write;That is a good point that you make in regards to the "person" of the verbs. But it doesn't help in regards to the question of whether 9:21 is included into the quotation by Paul which is started at the end of 9:20.My original question still stands;Where is the quotation by Paul (which is started in 9:20) end? At the end of 9:20 or at the end of 9:21? Is it normal to start a brand new thought with "H" (or), if not then why is 9:21 excluded from the quotation? Is there any grammatical rules that govern this type of quotation?My current position is that 9:21 is part of the quotation started at the end of 9:20. And that the quotation is not ended by Paul until a new thought is introduced in 9:22 with "EI DE".the text in question is9:19-22(19) EREIS MOI OUV TI [OUN] ETI MEMFETAI TW GAR BOULHMATI AUTOU TIS ANQESTHKEN (20) W ANQROPWTE MENOUNGE SU TIS EI hO ANTAPOKRINOMENOS TWi QEWi MH EREI TO PLASMA TWi PLASANTI TI ME EPOIHSAS hOUTWS (21)H OUK ECEI EXOUSIAN hO KERAMEUS TOU PHLOU EK TOU AUTOU FURAMATOS POIHSAI hO MEN EIS TIMHN SKEUOS hO DE EIS ATIMIAN (22) EI DE QELWN hO QEOS ENDEIXASQAI THN ORGHN KAI GNWRISAI TO DUNATON AUTOU HNEGKEN EN POLLHi MAKROQUMIAi SKEUH ORGHS KATHRTISMENA EIS APWLEIANHappy New Year!TimDate: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:44:38 -0800From: gfsomsel at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21To: taztimmitchell at hotmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.orgI think that the actual (hypothetical) quotation only includes τί [οὖν] ἔτι μέμφεται; τῷ γὰρ βουλήματι αὐτοῦ τίς ἀνθέστηκεν; [TI [[OUN]] ETI MEMFETAI? TWi GAR BOULHMATI AUTOU TIS ANQESTHKEN? Note that in this he uses the 2nd person whereas in what follows he uses 3rd person μὴ ἐρεῖ τὸ πλάσμα τῷ πλάσαντι· [MH EREI TO PLASANTI]. When he does return to 2nd person it is as a second quotation (again hypothetical) used in the context of his response in which the entity (as opposed to his interlocutor) says τί με ἐποίησας οὕτως; ["TI ME EPOIHSAS hOUTWS?"]. georgegfsomsel Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ----- Original Message ----From: Timothy Mitchell <taztimmitchell at hotmail.com>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:35:49 PMSubject: [B-Greek] Qoutations in Romans 9:19-21I have a question concerning a quotation by Paul in Romans 9:20-21.9:19-21EREIS MOI OUV TI [OUN] ETI MEMFETAI TW GAR BOULHMATI AUTOU TIS ANQESTHKEN W ANQROPWTE MENOUNGE SU TIS EI hO ANTAPOKRINOMENOS TWi QEWi MH EREI TO PLASMA TWi PLASANTI TI ME EPOIHSAS hOUTWS H OUK ECEI EXOUSIAN hO KERAMEUS TOU PHLOU EK TOU AUTOU FURAMATOS POIHSAI hO MEN EIS TIMHN SKEUOS hO DE EIS ATIMIANPaul I think obviously quotes an imaginary objector to his thoughts with the statement in 9:19 "EREIS MOI OUN" (You will say to me then) the whole of verse 19 I believe is this quotation by Paul. In verse 20 I think Paul answers this imaginary objector with "W ANQROPWTE MENOUNGE SU TIS EI hO ANTAPOKRINOMENOS TWi QEWi" (On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?)Paul thenseems to quote another objector or possibly the same objector with the phrase "MH EREI TO PLASMA TWi PLASANTI" (The thing molded will not say to the molder...)Most translations only include the rest of the verse in quotation marks and exclude the whole of 9:21 from the quotation by Paul and include it in Paul's argument against the imaginary objector in 9:20. But 9:21 begins with the conjunction "H", which seems to me to connect the phrase with the previous thoughts of the imaginary objector that are being quoted by Paul. The flow of thought does not seems to be interrupted until the beginning of 9:22 with "EI DE QELWN hO QEOS ENDEIXASQAI THN ORGHN KAI GNWRISAI TO DUNATON AUTOU HNEGKEN EN POLLHi MAKROQUMIAi SKEUH ORGHS KATHRTISMENA EIS APWLEIAN". ""EI DE" seems to be the logical point in which to stop the quotation but it is difficult to say because most of the time this format is used, there is a strong objection that is raised at the end of thequotation that show obviously that the quotation is ended. 9:19-29 is an obvious example as well as 1 Corinthians 15:35-36 "ALLA EREI TIS PWS EGEIRONTAI hOI NEKROI POIWi DE SWMATI ERCONTAI AFRWN SU hO SPEIREIS OU ZWOPOIEIRAI EAN MH APOQANHi". Here Paul quotes two thoughts of the imaginary objector connected with a "DE" but he obviously ends the quotation with the strong emotionally charged statement "AFRWN" (FOOL!). My question is this "Where is the quotation by Paul (which is started in 9:20) end? At the end of 9:20 or at the end of 9:21? Is it normal to start a brand new thought with "H", if not then why is 9:21 excluded from the quotation? Is there any grammatical rules that govern this type of quotation?Happy New Year to all!Tim..."What happy application, what praiseworthy industry, to preach to men by means of the hand, to untie the tongue by means of the fingers, to bring quiet salvation to mortals, and to fight the devil's insidious wiles withpen and ink! For every word of the Lord written by the Scribe is a wound inflicted on Satan. And so, though seated in one spot, the scribe traverses diverse lands through the dissemination of what he has written"... -Cassiodorus, Institutiones (C. 536 AD) _________________________________________________________________Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec---B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreekB-Greek mailing listB-Greek at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greekLooking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! 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