[B-Greek] Greek Semi-Colon? [WAS: testing my new tool]
frjsilver at optonline.net
frjsilver at optonline.net
Mon Dec 31 11:27:33 EST 2007
That was precisely my point, but I used English-language-style word order in Latin to illustrate it for both languages, and -- by extension -- for Greek.
Father James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl W. Conrad"
Date: Monday, December 31, 2007 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek Semi-Colon? [WAS: testing my new tool]
To: Eric Inman
Cc: frjsilver at optonline.net, "'Jeffrey T. Requadt'" , b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> More likely than either would be "canis virum mordet" (SOV is
> the somewhat more prevalent word-order), but that or "virum
> mordet canis" or "canis mordet virum" are all equivalent in
> meaning, inasmuch as the case-endings rather than word-order
> indicate the syntactic functions in Latin (as in Greek).
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)
>
> On Monday, December 31, 2007, at 10:51AM, "Eric Inman"
> wrote:
> >Wouldn't it be 'virum mordet canis'? -Eric Inman
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-
> bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of frjsilver at optonline.net
> >Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:08 AM
> >To: Jeffrey T. Requadt
> >Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek Semi-Colon? [WAS: testing my new tool]
> >
> >Christ is born, glorify Him!
> >
> >Dear Friends --
> >
> >Like most languages, Modern Greek texts (and modern printed
> editions of all older styles of the language) make use of
> punctuation, whose conventions even now are far from universal.
> >
> >But we need to bear in mind, especially regarding the Greek
> texts of the Bible and the New Testament, that these systems are
> an interpretive apparatus only slightly different from a gloss
> or HERMENEIA, but maybe much more subtly prejudicial because
> they appear within the text itself and so guide the reader's
> understanding.>
> >Ancient manuscript texts, and even some early incunabula, did
> without punctuation or even spacing between letters, paragraphs,
> etc. Numerical versification wasn't much in vogue until the
> 1500's, and even the, I've heard that it was purely a
> convenience for typesetters so they didn't unintentionally omit
> entire lines. In orthodox liturgical books, although we've just
> recently taken to including verse numbers these last three
> centuries or so, we still identify each section or PERIKOPH by
> number within each title of the books of the scriptures; these
> numbers appear in the outer margins, but that's about as much of
> a reference as there ever was prior to the invention of movable type.
> >
> >In a highly inflected language such as Greek (Latin, too), it's
> sufficiently clear from grammar which words are related to which
> other words. This is most unlike English, e.g., in which
> meaning must be gleaned almost entirely from syntactic structure
> expressed by word sequence: there are simply not enough
> inflections to make sense of it otherwise.
> >
> >I well remember from first year Latin: 'dog bites man' does not
> equal 'man bites dog' -- same words, same minimal inflection,
> different word sequence, and a completely different meaning,
> contrasted with 'canis mordet virum' and 'vir mordet canem' --
> same words, extensive inflections, different word sequence, yet
> exactly the same meaning.
> >
> >Latin and Greek don't need punctuation, but we're used to it
> (and spacing, too), but it's important for us to keep aware of
> the interpretive influence and editorial bias with which such
> systems necessarily burden the bare text.
> >
> >I hope this Christmas is going well and wonderfully for you,
> and that your New Year will be better than that!
> >
> >Peace and blessings to all.
> >
> >Father James
> >
> >Monk James Silver
> >Orthodox Church in America
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jeffrey T. Requadt"
> >Date: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:52 pm
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek Semi-Colon? [WAS: testing my new tool]
> >To: 'Anita Clerke'
> >Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> >> As far as I know, a ?raised period? (what is the actual term
> for
> >> that punctuation?) could be ?roughly? equivalent to an
> English
> >> colon OR semicolon, depending on the clauses and phrases
> which
> >> it is separating. I do not have the book to which you refer,
> >> although I do have Mounce?s BBG, and he does indeed say that
> it
> >> is equivalent to the semi-colon, and does not refer to the
> >> colon. I did not use Mounce to begin learning Greek. I used
> >> Kaufmann, which I don?t have anymore, and I also used Eugene
> Van
> >> Ness Goetchius? The Language of the New Testament, and I know
> >> that Goetchius says that it could be both. I have made it a
> >> colon in my tool simply because it would be obviously
> impossible
> >> to know when it should be an English colon or semi-colon; and
> >> also because I?m not trying to say how it should be
> interpreted
> >> in English, simply that there is a punctuation mark there in
> the
> >> Greek text (edited, obviously) that is not a period or
> question
> >> mark. I think my experience, which is very limited even
> within
> >> the realm of the New Testament and a reading in the church
> >> fathers every now and then, is that the raised period more
> often
> >> serves the purpose that an English colon does: namely, to
> >> precede a list, quotation, or explanation. Actually I?m a
> little
> >> surprised that Mounce does not refer to its use as such. Am I
> >> off my rocker here? I guess this is a pretty trivial
> question,
> >> but I think it could bear on the meaning of the text at some
> >> miniscule level. I'm sure someone knows the answer to all this.
> >> Jeff Requadt
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Anita Clerke [mailto:clerke at humanperformance.cc]
> >> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:12 AM
> >> To: Jeffrey T. Requadt
> >> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] testing my new tool
> >>
> >> I'm running Mac OS 10.4.11, on a PowerPC G5, using Mail 2.1.2.
> >> Your program seems to be flawless except:
> >> Where the Greek text has a period above the line, this is
> >> converted to a colon in B-Greek. I gather from page 15 of
> Greek
> >> for the Rest of Us (2003) by WD Mounce that a period above
> the
> >> line should be a semicolon in English. However perhaps the
> >> convention for B-Greek is different.
> >>
> >> 2) The Greek text line beginning with |1 ??? has a comma
> >> followed by a 1 ???????. In the B-Greek translation, the
> numeral
> >> 1 is ignored. The other numbers, namely 2 and 3 are present though.
> >>
> >> Well done.
> >> Jonathan Clerke
> >> clerke at humanperformance.cc
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 30/12/2007, at 3:57 AM, Jeffrey T. Requadt wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm trying to test my new conversion tool. I'm sending the
> first
> >> part of 1 Clement in both Unicode and B-Greek, without having
> >> typed a single letter of it. Any feedback would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> >> B-Greek mailing list
> >> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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> >>
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>
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