[B-Greek] hHMEIS DE hWS ADOKIMOI WMEN, 2 Cor. 13:7
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Feb 8 15:17:09 EST 2007
On Feb 8, 2007, at 10:25 AM, Eric Inman wrote:
> I have two questions.
>
> First of all, could it be possible that the second hINA goes with WMEN
> rather than EUCOMEQA, resulting in:
>
> "And we entreat you by God not to do anything wrong, not so we
> ourselves
> would appear to meet the test, for in order that you would do the
> right
> thing we would (be willing to) be as having failed."
I don't understand the above version at all. I'm certainly not
understanding DOKIMOI and ADIKIMOI in anything like the sense you're
suggesting.
As for the question, I think that both hINA's are to be understood as
a purpose -- or result -- clauses dependent upon POIHSAI hUMAS KAKON
MHDEN; they surely must go together, since they're coordinated by the
ALLA: OUC hINA ... ALL' hINA ...
> Secondly, Carl, would you suggest that DOKIMOS should be taken in
> sense #2
> in verses 5 and 6 as well as in verse 7?
It's ADOKIMOI in verses 5 and 6. IF sense #2 is right, it would have
to be "unesteemed" -- or, in terms of what I've suggested in my first
comment, "faceless" -- i.e. meeting with disapproval (of the other
party).
> I'm assuming that the translation into first person singular
> instead of
> plural was just an oversight rather than intentional.
On the contrary, it was quite intentional; I think that Paul's
speaking only of himself and using the plural in the "editorial"
sense: see Wallace, p. 393ff.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W. Conrad
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:45 AM
> To: Webb
> Cc: 'B-Greek'
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hHMEIS DE hWS ADOKIMOI WMEN, 2 Cor. 13:7
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Webb wrote:
>
>> EUCOMEQA DE PROS TON QEON MH POIHSAI hUMAS KAKON MHDEN
>> OUC hINA hHMEIS DOKIMOI FANWMEN, ALL hINA hUMEIS TO KALON POIHTE
>> hHMEIS DE hWS ADOKIMOI WMEN
>>
>> I'd like to rule out the possibility that this essentially means,
>>
>> And we're praying to God that you won't do anything wrong - not so
>> that
>> we'll appear to be accepted by you, but so that you'll do the right
>> thing -
>> even if that means rejecting us.
>>
>> NRSV, followed in essence by most English versions, has, "not that
>> we may
>> appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right,
>> though we
>> may seem to have failed".
>> This one is susceptible of the reading I am trying to rule out, but
>> it more
>> probably means, "you'll do the right thing despite the appearance
>> that we've
>> failed".
>>
>> Lattimore has, "not so that we may appear worthy, but so that you
>> may do
>> what is good and we may be, as it were, the unworthy ones".
>> This is interesting, because it sounds like the sort of thing Paul
>> might
>> well say. "I don't care if we come out looking like fools, as long
>> as you
>> come out ok".
>>
>> Any comments?
>
> Everybody's jumping to respond to this, huh? I'm the first, after 12
> hours have passed! I suppose that may mean that others are every bit
> as uncomfortable with this passage as are Webb and myself. Well,
> inasmuch as "comments" have been requested, that's what I'll offer.
>
> In the first place, it is my conviction that, important as this
> letter is for so many reasons, its interpretation should remain open
> to revision by any serious interpreter unless and until a whole slew
> of questions have been resolved. That the letter is a composite of
> multiple letters seems to me a given: that raises the question of its
> composition history and also the question of what was said by the
> opposing party to whom these letters are responses. If one doesn't
> think this is a composite letter, then other questions will come up.
> The sum of it all is that one of the major problems of the letter to
> the Galatians (What did the other party say to evoke the response we
> read? What is to be understood between the lines of the present
> communication?) multiplied "to the power of X" (yes, where I live in
> the mountains I must rely on satellite radio because I can't even get
> a cell phone or wireless internet yet).
>
> It seems to me that the crux of the question in this particular text
> is the intended sense of DOKIMOS. I think that BDAG is probably right
> in its listing of the range of possible senses:
> 1. pert. to being genuine on the basis of testing, approved (by
> test), tried and true, genuine
> 2. pert. to being considered worthy of high regard, respected,
> esteemed
> 3. pert. to being valuable, precious
>
> I am inclined to think that sense #2 is closer to what's meant in 2
> Cor 13:7 than the others -- that our concern here is with "face" --
> with how one "looks" to others with whom one is dealing. I also am
> inclined to think that the adjective is close in sense to a usage of
> the verb DOKEW that we see in Gal 2:6-7 APO DE TWN DOKOUNTWN EINAI TI
> -- hOPOIOI POTE HSAN OUDEN MOI DIAFEREI; PROSWPON [hO] QEOS OU
> LAMBANEI -- EMOI GAR hOI DOKOUNTES OUDEN PROSANEQENTO ...
>
> I think there's almost a colloquial force to the adjective DOKIMOS
> and its opposed ADOKIMOS -- not in other NT instances where these
> words appear, but in this particular passage. And it seems to me too
> that the hWS that qualifies ADOKIMOI in the final clause of our
> passage weakens -- a little -- the negative force of the adjective:
> "somewhat faceless" or "somewhat out of favor."
>
> In that light, I suggest (very, very tentatively):
>
> Text: EUCOMEQA DE PROS TON QEON MH POIHSAI hUMAS KAKON MHDEN OUC hINA
> hHMEIS DOKIMOI FANWMEN, ALL hINA hUMEIS TO KALON POIHTE hHMEIS DE
> hWS ADOKIMOI WMEN
>
> "And I entreat you by god not to do anything wrong, not so I myself
> can save face, but so that YOU yourselves do the right thing and I
> lose face to some extent.
>
> I'm assuming that the hINA clauses here really are all purpose
> clauses, although it seems to me that OUC hINA ... WMEN may be more a
> matter of result (NT Koine Greek has more or less erased any clear
> distinction between purpose and result constructions). I think that
> my version above can be read with that want of distinction between
> purpose and result evident.
>
> End of comment.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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