[B-Greek] Luke 2:36
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Jan 4 11:50:28 EST 2007
> HH: I don't think you are right. Here is the meaning
> of the Hebrew
> 'btwlym' in the standard scholarly hebrew lexicon
> (HAL): "1. state of
> virginity Lev 21:13; Ju 11:37f; Ezk 23:3,8; Sir
> 42:10; ---2. evidence
> of virginity Dt 22:14f., 17, 20." I believe Randall
> has things exactly
> right.
TT: You will forgive me for not having my HAL near at
hand; but I can tell you already that the term used in
passages cited s.v. 1 is certainy not 'btwlym': to be
included in the list of mistakes I and others continue
to collect in order to send along to the editors of
_________________
I have transliterated the Hebrew of these passages and also included the translation of the JPS Tanak
Lev 21.13
W:HW.) )i$.fH BiB:TW.LeYHf YiQ.fX
He may marry only a woman who is a virgin.
Jdg 11.37
. . . W:)eB:K.eH (aL_B.:TW.LaY )fNoKiY W:R"(YoTfY
". . . and there bewail my maidenhood."
Ezk 23. 3, 8
. . . W:$fM (i%.W. D.aD."Y B.:TW.L"YHeN
. . . and they had handled her virgin nipples
. . . W:H"M.fH (i%.W. D.aD."Y B:TW.LeYHf
. . . and they had handled her virgin nipples
I see no error in HALOT
george
gfsomsel
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Tory Thorpe <torythrp at yahoo.com>
To: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard at ont.com>; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 11:30:49 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 2:36
> HH: I don't think you are right. Here is the meaning
> of the Hebrew
> 'btwlym' in the standard scholarly hebrew lexicon
> (HAL): "1. state of
> virginity Lev 21:13; Ju 11:37f; Ezk 23:3,8; Sir
> 42:10; ---2. evidence
> of virginity Dt 22:14f., 17, 20." I believe Randall
> has things exactly
> right.
TT: You will forgive me for not having my HAL near at
hand; but I can tell you already that the term used in
passages cited s.v. 1 is certainy not 'btwlym': to be
included in the list of mistakes I and others continue
to collect in order to send along to the editors of
HAL. 2 is perfectly fine.
> HH: I do not accept that Talmudic or modern Jewish
> interpretation always
> necessarily reflects a particular biblical usage.
TT: I cited the Mishnah, not the Talmud or the current
halakah.
> Randall's comment that
> you are criticizing here seems preferable. That is
> the obvious intent of
> the passage, it seems to me.
TT: It's not so obvious to me, or other religious
Jews.
> You seem to be
> proposing a strange and
> unlikely idea, that someone was married seven years
> before having a
> period. I would say the circumstance is almost
> incredible or a medical
> disorder.
TT: It may seem strange, to you, but delayed puberty
is an extension of a girl's 'virginity' if we one goes
by the definition of btwlh in the Mishnah which puts
us in the setting of first century Judaism. There is
nothing incredible about it.
> HH: I don't think the idea of not having had one's
> first period is the
> idea stressed or even mentioned in the Bible.
TT: The Bible only provides snapshots of the language;
but it is very clear that 'btwlh' requires
qualification and does not, by itself, imply chastity.
> > Young people were sometimes referred to as
> > 'parthenos', without any knowledge or statement of
> their sexlife.
> >
> > TT: And a young woman everyone knew was no longer
> > virgo intacta could still be referred to as
> > 'parthenos' (LXX, Gen. 34:1-4).
> >
>
>
> HH: However, one point of the word in this context
> of Gen 34:3 may be to
> indicate that Dinah had been a virgin before this
> rape described in the
> previous verse, and she had had no intention of
> being anything but a virgin.
TT: I appreciate the midrash, but your remark
underscores that we are only talking about what is
possible, not what can be proven.
> >> As for APO THS PARQENIAS being as an idiom for
> >> 'marital fidelity', I've never seen such.
> >> 'a virginal marriage'? Almost sounds kinky and
> >> would turn the idiom on its head.
> >>
> >
> > TT: The former is possibly the sense in Rev. 14:4,
> > since marital life, or even sex per se, does not
> cause
> > 'defilement' in a Jewish context.
>
> HH: Well, the act of sex does make one unclean:
>
> Lev 15:16 When a man has an emission of semen, he is
> to bathe himself
> completely with water, and he will remain unclean
> until evening.
>
> Lev. 15:18 If a man lies down (LXX: "sleeps") with a
> woman and has an
> emission of semen, both of them are to bathe with
> water, and they will
> remain unclean until evening.
TT: Ritually, yes, not spiritually. Since sex is a
mitzvah of marriage.
> > As for the latter,
> > you are, once again, reading virgo intacta into Lk
> > 2:36.
>
> HH: That's what the text implies.
TT: It may imply that to non-Jewish readers. In any
case, I do not see how you can prove the author's
intent here.
> > It might help to explain that a pregnant btwlh
> > is not a contradiction or biological
> impossibility,
> > not in the Jewish worldview (Chag. 14b-15a) where
> > btwlh simply refers to a minor, i.e. a girl below
> > puberty.
>
> HH: That may be a possible idea, but it is not the
> idea in this verse.
TT: How do you know that?
> > Thus Hanna's virginity (btwlyh) can refer to
> > delayed puberty, that is, she experienced seven
> years
> > of marital life before becoming a menstruant,
> which
> > would be noteworthy in Judaism.
> >
>
> HH: This is not the idea in Luke 2
TT: How do you know that?
> > TT: Of course, I would never offer Lk 2:36 as
> proof of
> > anything. I'm only looking at it from a Jewish
> > perspective. I cannot help it, being a Jew. But
> > perhaps that is not what the Luke author expects.
> >
>
> HH: Right. The word has more than one meaning, and
> the idea you suggest
> is not the only possible meaning for the terms
> involved. The idea that I
> generally hear for btwlyh is that it refers to a
> female of marriageable
> age and often connotes a virgin.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
TT: I never said mine was the only possible meaning.
Best,
Tory Thorpe
---
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