[B-Greek] Luke 2:36
Bryant J. Williams III
bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Thu Jan 4 19:28:59 EST 2007
Dear Albert,
It appears that Tony is trying to do that, but I could be wrong (he is
quoting from the Mishnah). I sent the entire article from TWOT along with
comments from the articles from BDAG. I would think that what is also
happening that you so eloquently stated in your reply is that since the
Koine Greek word is PARQENIA, and is used to translate Bethulah in the LXX,
then it follows that it has the same meaning. I think that is the wrong way
to go about it. There are some overlaps from checking TWOT, TDOT, TDNT,
NIDNTT, BDAG, HALOT, etc., but there is enough differences to suggest that
there is not a complete word-to-word differences.
I suspect that since Bethulah and Almah are translated by PARQENIA and
PARQENOS that it would be wise to allow the context to indicate the meaning.
Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Pietersma" <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw at com-pair.net>
Cc: "Tory Thorpe" <torythrp at yahoo.com>; "Harold Holmyard"
<hholmyard at ont.com>; <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 2:36
If I recall correctly this discussion started about a Greek word. Thus
I cannot help wonder how we ended up with talking about Hebrew. Perhaps
I have missed a step—but it isn't being suggested, is it, that,
without due qualification, we read the Greek in terms of the Hebrew,
hence superimposing MT on LXX?
Al
On Jan 4, 2007, at 5:41 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
> Tony, Harold, et al,
>
> 1. TWOT, Volume 1, pages 137-138, "Betulah." I highly recommend
> reading the
> entire article.
>
> Virgin, maid, maiden; probably from an unused verb bātal “to separate.”
> Although Hebrew lexicons and modern translations generally translate
> bĕtûlâ
> as “virgin,” G. J. Wenham (“Betulah ‘A Girl of Marriageable Age,’ ” VT
> 22:326–48) and Tsevat (TDOT II, p. 338–43) contest this as the general
> meaning but prefer “a young (marriageable) maiden.” But whereas Wenham
> does
> not concede the meaning “virgin” in any text, Tsevat allows this
> meaning in
> three out of its fifty–one occurrences (Lev 21:13f; Deut 22:19; Ezk
> 44:22).
> In any case, a strong case can be presented that bĕtûlâ is not a
> technical
> term for irgo inta˓ta in the ot, a conclusion that has important
> bearing on
> the meaning of ˓almâ in Isa 7:14.
> The Cognate Languages. A study of the word in the cognate language
> sustains
> C. H. Gordon’s contention that bĕtûlâ in the near eastern languages by
> itself does not mean virgo intacta (JBR 21:240–41).
> The Egyptian word especially parallel to our Hebrew word is ḥwnt.
> While the
> word may denote “girl,” “virgin,” it can also denote a young
> marriageable
> woman, or a young woman who has had sexual relations. Thus the word is
> used
> in the Pyramid Texts of the king’s protectress who is explicitly
> called his
> mother, and of Isis, of whom it is said in a sarcophagus oracle that
> she is
> mysteriously pregnant. Tsevat concluded: “It can be stated that ḥwnt
> is not
> used to denote biological virginity, but rather youthful vigor and
> potential
> motherhood” (P. 339).
> The Akkadian cognate, batultu, denotes “primarily an age group: only in
> specific contexts … does it assume the connotation ‘virgin’ ” (CAD
> II:174).
> J. J. Finkelstein (“Sex Offences in Sumerian Laws,” JAOS 86:355:72)
> and B.
> Landsberger “Jungfräulichkeit: Ein Beitrag zum ‘Thema Beilager und
> Eheschliessung’ ” in Symbolae juridicae … M. David … edid. J. A. Ankum
> … ,
> II (Leiden, 1968, pp. 41–105) have underscored in independent studies
> that
> the word is normally best understood as “young (unmarried) girl.” In
> fact,
> there is no one word for “virgin” in Sumerian or Akkadian; that
> concept is
> expressed negatively by “who is not deflowered.”
> In Ugaritic btlt is a frequent epithet for Anat, Baal’s wife, who
> repeatedly
> has sexual intercourse (cf. A. van Selms, Marriage and Family Life in
> Ugaritic Literature, London, 1954, pp. 69, 109).
> In a Shiite tradition, Fatima, though the mother of Hasan and Hussein
> along
> with other children, bears the title batūl (C. Virolleaud, Le Theatre
> Persan, Paris, 1950, p. 37). And in an Aramaic text from Nippur,
> Montgomery
> interprets the phrase, btwlt “travailing and not bearing,” to denote a
> hapless wife suffering from miscarriages and other female complaints
> (Aramaic Incantation Texts from Nippur, Philadelphia, 1913, p. 131).
> Tsevat concluded that the word “does not mean ‘virgin’ in any language
> exclusively (Aram.), mainly (Heb.), or generally (Akk. [and Ugar.?])”
> (p.
> 340).
> OT usage. Whether bĕtûlâ is used in a general sense, “young woman” or
> a more
> particular sense “virgin” cannot be decided for Ex 22:16f [H 15f.];
> Deut
> 22:28–29; Lev 21:2–3; etc. But in Lev 21:13–14 and Ezk 44:22 where
> bĕtûlâ is
> contrasted with various classes of women who have had sexual
> experience, it
> seems probable that the concept of “virgin” is in view.
> Wenham’s argument that qualifying clauses of bĕtûlâ, such as “that has
> had
> no husband” (Lev 21:2–3) or “whom no man had known” (Gen 24:16; Jud
> 21:12),
> are pointless if the word means “virgin” is less than convincing, for
> it
> cannot be decided whether these are non-restrictive or restrictive
> clauses,
> cf. II Sam 14:5 for a somewhat similar repetition.
> But Wenham does call into question the conclusion that our word must
> mean
> “virgin” in Deut 22:13–21 because he offers a plausible interpretation
> assuming the general meaning of “nubile adolescence.” In the first
> place,
> bĕtûlı̂m “tokens of virginity” (vv. 14, 15, 17, 18) is morphologically
> the
> regular form for abstract nouns in biblical Hebrew designating age
> groups
> (cf. nĕ˓ûrı̂m “youth” zĕqûnı̂m “old age”). Moreover, according to him,
> the
> “tokens of virginity” called for by the elders are not the sheets of
> the
> wedding night but garments stained by blood during her last period,
> and by
> producing these the girl’s parents could refute the jealous husband’s
> complaint that his wife was with child by another man while she was
> still in
> her father’s house. Finally, he argued that this interpretation
> admirably
> suits the sentence that if such tokens could not be produced she
> should be
> stoned to death “because she wrought folly in Israel by playing the
> harlot
> in her father’s house” (Deut 22:21). Thus the “tokens” served as a
> test,
> proving that she was not pregnant when she was married. If she was not
> pregnant, she was presumed to be a virgin. If this interpretation of
> bĕtûlı̂m is correct then this would further sustain the thesis that
> bĕtûlâ
> is a “girl of marriageable age,” since the onset of menstruation would
> be
> the clearest sign that she had attained that age.
> Since Wenham has presented a strong case that the interpretation test
> is not
> one of virginity but chastity, one must concede that bĕtûlı̂m or bĕtûlâ
> does
> not clearly speak of virginity in this disputed text.
> In eight places our word bĕtûlâ is contrasted to or combined with the
> Hebrew
> word for young man (Deut 32:25; II Chr 36:17; Ps 148:12; Isa 62:5; Jer
> 51:22; Lam 1:18; 2:21; Zech 9:17). In these places the phrases signify
> no
> more than young men and women. In Ezk 9:6 it (in plural) refers to
> girls
> together with little children and women who will be killed because of
> Israel
> ’s wickedness.
> But in Joel 1:8, where the bĕtûlâ is called upon to lament the death
> of her
> ba˓al “husband,” it probably does not mean “virgin” for elsewhere
> ba˓al is
> the regular word for “husband” and its usual translation by
> “bridegroom” in
> the versions is otherwise unattested. Likewise in Est 2:17 the bĕtûlōt
> who
> spent a night with King Ahasuerus are not virgins, unless it is a
> “shorthand” for “those who had been virgins.” In a parable Ezekiel
> speaks
> of Oholah and Oholibah playing the harlot and their bĕtûlı̂m breasts
> being
> handled (23:3). Here too the notion of virginity would be inaccurate.
> Finally in Job 31:1 even the neb translated our word by “girl” because
> it
> would not be sinful for Job to look on a virgin. Unless it is an
> epithet for
> a Canaanite goddess it probably designates a young married woman (cf.
> vv.
> 8ff).
> Like Greek parthenos, Latin virgo and German Jungfrau, bĕtûlâ
> originally
> meant “young marriageable woman” but since she was normally a virgin
> it was
> not difficult for this meaning to become attached to the word. This
> more
> technical meaning is a later development in Hebrew and Aramaic and is
> clearly its meaning by the Christian era. When the change took place
> is not
> clear.
> What is clear is that one cannot argue that if Isaiah (7:14) in his
> famous
> oracle to Ahaz had intended a virgin he could have used bĕtûlâ as a
> more
> precise term than ˓almâ.
> bĕtûlâ is used in a number of figurative expressions referring to
> cities or
> countries as young women: Zion (Isa 37:22); Babylon (Isa 47:1); Israel
> (Jer
> 18:13) etc. Cf. the frequent expression “the daughter of Zion.”
> Bibliography: Beegle, Dewey, M., “Virgin or Young Woman?” Asbury
> Seminarian
> 8:20–34. Gordon, C. H. “ Almah in Isaiah 7:14,” JBR 21:106. Knight, G.
> A.
> F., “The Virgin and the Old Testament,” RTR 12:l–13. Young, Edwin J.,
> “The
> Immanuel Prophecy,” WTJ 15:97–124; 16:23–50. TDNT, V, pp. 831–34.
> TDOT, II,
> pp. 338–43.
> B.K.W.
>
> Harris, R. Laird ; Harris, Robert Laird ; Archer, Gleason Leonard ;
> Waltke, Bruce K.: Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
> electronic ed.
> Chicago : Moody Press, 1999, c1980, S. 137
>
> 2. BDAG, 2nd Edition, page 627, PARQENOS. The article does indicate
> that
> although used of "virga intacta" (see #1).
>
> 3. BDAG, 2nd Edition, pages 626-627, PARQENIA. It is this word that
> is used
> in Luke 2:36. It says, "Of the time of virginity APO THS PARQENIAS."
> It is
> referring to a "state of being" in which the person is considered a
> "virgin." It seems that it is referring to the state of not having
> intercourse since her husband had died and had not remarried.
>
> 4. Furthermore, it seems that concentration on the term without
> considering
> the preposition APO will cause a problem. It appears that APO is being
> used
> with reference to "from" the time of virginity." This would seem to
> indicate
> that from her marriage night to the time she meets Mary, Joseph and
> Jesus,
> was 84 years. But the phrase is ambiguous enought to indicate 84 years
> of
> age and referencing her lack of not remarrying, i.e. she is a widow of
> 84
> years of age. Otherwise one would have to include that she married
> around
> 14-16 years of age, was married 7 years, then widowed for 84 years
> giving an
> approximate age of 107 as the limit. It is possible, but not likely.
> We will
> have to stick to the ambiguity of the term or phrase and leave it at
> that.
> To go beyond what is indicated would go into hermeneutics, etc, etc,
> etc.
> and is beyond list protocols. I am sure one of the moderators will let
> us
> know if we have strayed.
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tory Thorpe" <torythrp at yahoo.com>
> To: "Harold Holmyard" <hholmyard at ont.com>; <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 2:36
>
>
>>> HH: I don't think you are right. Here is the meaning
>>> of the Hebrew
>>> 'btwlym' in the standard scholarly hebrew lexicon
>>> (HAL): "1. state of
>>> virginity Lev 21:13; Ju 11:37f; Ezk 23:3,8; Sir
>>> 42:10; ---2. evidence
>>> of virginity Dt 22:14f., 17, 20." I believe Randall
>>> has things exactly
>>> right.
>>
>> TT: You will forgive me for not having my HAL near at
>> hand; but I can tell you already that the term used in
>> passages cited s.v. 1 is certainy not 'btwlym': to be
>> included in the list of mistakes I and others continue
>> to collect in order to send along to the editors of
>> HAL. 2 is perfectly fine.
>>
>>> HH: I do not accept that Talmudic or modern Jewish
>>> interpretation always
>>> necessarily reflects a particular biblical usage.
>>
>> TT: I cited the Mishnah, not the Talmud or the current
>> halakah.
>>
>>> Randall's comment that
>>> you are criticizing here seems preferable. That is
>>> the obvious intent of
>>> the passage, it seems to me.
>>
>> TT: It's not so obvious to me, or other religious
>> Jews.
>>
>>> You seem to be
>>> proposing a strange and
>>> unlikely idea, that someone was married seven years
>>> before having a
>>> period. I would say the circumstance is almost
>>> incredible or a medical
>>> disorder.
>>
>> TT: It may seem strange, to you, but delayed puberty
>> is an extension of a girl's 'virginity' if we one goes
>> by the definition of btwlh in the Mishnah which puts
>> us in the setting of first century Judaism. There is
>> nothing incredible about it.
>>
>>> HH: I don't think the idea of not having had one's
>>> first period is the
>>> idea stressed or even mentioned in the Bible.
>>
>> TT: The Bible only provides snapshots of the language;
>> but it is very clear that 'btwlh' requires
>> qualification and does not, by itself, imply chastity.
>>
>>
>>>> Young people were sometimes referred to as
>>>> 'parthenos', without any knowledge or statement of
>>> their sexlife.
>>>>
>>>> TT: And a young woman everyone knew was no longer
>>>> virgo intacta could still be referred to as
>>>> 'parthenos' (LXX, Gen. 34:1-4).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> HH: However, one point of the word in this context
>>> of Gen 34:3 may be to
>>> indicate that Dinah had been a virgin before this
>>> rape described in the
>>> previous verse, and she had had no intention of
>>> being anything but a virgin.
>>
>> TT: I appreciate the midrash, but your remark
>> underscores that we are only talking about what is
>> possible, not what can be proven.
>>
>>
>>>>> As for APO THS PARQENIAS being as an idiom for
>>>>> 'marital fidelity', I've never seen such.
>>>>> 'a virginal marriage'? Almost sounds kinky and
>>>>> would turn the idiom on its head.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TT: The former is possibly the sense in Rev. 14:4,
>>>> since marital life, or even sex per se, does not
>>> cause
>>>> 'defilement' in a Jewish context.
>>>
>>> HH: Well, the act of sex does make one unclean:
>>>
>>> Lev 15:16 When a man has an emission of semen, he is
>>> to bathe himself
>>> completely with water, and he will remain unclean
>>> until evening.
>>>
>>> Lev. 15:18 If a man lies down (LXX: "sleeps") with a
>>> woman and has an
>>> emission of semen, both of them are to bathe with
>>> water, and they will
>>> remain unclean until evening.
>>
>> TT: Ritually, yes, not spiritually. Since sex is a
>> mitzvah of marriage.
>>
>>>> As for the latter,
>>>> you are, once again, reading virgo intacta into Lk
>>>> 2:36.
>>>
>>> HH: That's what the text implies.
>>
>> TT: It may imply that to non-Jewish readers. In any
>> case, I do not see how you can prove the author's
>> intent here.
>>
>>
>>>> It might help to explain that a pregnant btwlh
>>>> is not a contradiction or biological
>>> impossibility,
>>>> not in the Jewish worldview (Chag. 14b-15a) where
>>>> btwlh simply refers to a minor, i.e. a girl below
>>>> puberty.
>>>
>>> HH: That may be a possible idea, but it is not the
>>> idea in this verse.
>>
>>
>> TT: How do you know that?
>>
>>
>>>> Thus Hanna's virginity (btwlyh) can refer to
>>>> delayed puberty, that is, she experienced seven
>>> years
>>>> of marital life before becoming a menstruant,
>>> which
>>>> would be noteworthy in Judaism.
>>>>
>>>
>>> HH: This is not the idea in Luke 2
>>
>>
>> TT: How do you know that?
>>
>>
>>>> TT: Of course, I would never offer Lk 2:36 as
>>> proof of
>>>> anything. I'm only looking at it from a Jewish
>>>> perspective. I cannot help it, being a Jew. But
>>>> perhaps that is not what the Luke author expects.
>>>>
>>>
>>> HH: Right. The word has more than one meaning, and
>>> the idea you suggest
>>> is not the only possible meaning for the terms
>>> involved. The idea that I
>>> generally hear for btwlyh is that it refers to a
>>> female of marriageable
>>> age and often connotes a virgin.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Harold Holmyard
>>
>> TT: I never said mine was the only possible meaning.
>>
>> Best,
>> Tory Thorpe
>> ---
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