[B-Greek] Luke 2:36

Harold Holmyard hholmyard at ont.com
Thu Jan 4 21:55:12 EST 2007


Dear Tory,
>> HH: I don't think you are right. Here is the meaning
>> of the Hebrew 
>> 'btwlym' in the standard scholarly hebrew lexicon
>> (HAL): "1. state of 
>> virginity Lev 21:13; Ju 11:37f;  Ezk 23:3,8;  Sir
>> 42:10; ---2. evidence 
>> of virginity Dt 22:14f., 17, 20." I believe Randall
>> has things exactly 
>> right.
>>     
>
> TT: You will forgive me for not having my HAL near at
> hand; but I can tell you already that the term used in
> passages cited s.v. 1 is certainy not 'btwlym': to be
> included in the list of mistakes I and others continue
> to collect in order to send along to the editors of
> HAL. 2 is perfectly fine.
>   

HH: Why do you say there is an error? The forms look to be plurals to 
me, no different than the ones in Deuteronomy 22.
>
>> You seem to be
>> proposing a strange and 
>> unlikely idea, that someone was married seven years
>> before having a 
>> period. I would say the circumstance is almost
>> incredible or a medical 
>> disorder.
>>     
>
> TT: It may seem strange, to you, but delayed puberty
> is an extension of a girl's 'virginity' if we one goes
> by the definition of btwlh in the Mishnah which puts
> us in the setting of first century Judaism. There is
> nothing incredible about it.

HH: But that's what I said. If someone had a puberty delayed until seven 
years after their marriage,  she would be the victim of a physiological 
disorder, and I've never heard of such a delayed onset of puberty as 
seven years after marriage. Having just read an article on the subject, 
it seems that it would be a disorder at the least:

http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/changing_body/delayed_puberty.html
>  
>  
>   
>> HH: I don't think the idea of not having had one's
>> first period is the 
>> idea stressed or even mentioned in the Bible.
>>     
>
> TT: The Bible only provides snapshots of the language;
> but it is very clear that 'btwlh' requires
> qualification and does not, by itself, imply chastity.
>   

HH: That's not the point. The point is that it can imply chastity. That 
is the meaning in some contexts.
>   
>>>> As for APO THS PARQENIAS being as an idiom for
>>>> 'marital fidelity', I've never seen such.
>>>> 'a virginal marriage'? Almost sounds kinky and
>>>> would turn the idiom on its head.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> TT: The former is possibly the sense in Rev. 14:4,
>>> since marital life, or even sex per se, does not cause' defilement' in a Jewish context.
>>>       
>> HH: Well, the act of sex does make one unclean:
>>
>> Lev 15:16 When a man has an emission of semen, he is
>> to bathe himself 
>> completely with water, and he will remain unclean
>> until evening.
>>
>> Lev. 15:18 If a man lies down (LXX: "sleeps") with a
>> woman and has an 
>> emission of semen, both of them are to bathe with
>> water, and they will 
>> remain unclean until evening.
>>     
>
> TT: Ritually, yes, not spiritually. Since sex is a
> mitzvah of marriage.
>   

HH: But perhaps the passage in Revelation is speaking about ritual 
defilement. The verb MOLUNW used in Rev 14:4 describes the effect of 
dipping something in blood in Gen 37:31, or something that has touched 
blood and so become ritually defiled in Lam 4:14:

Lam. 4:14   Blindly they wandered through the streets,
        so defiled with blood
    that no one was able
        to touch their garments.

HH: If somebody was a virgin, it would be the case that they had never 
been ritually defiled with a woman.
>   
>>>  As for the latter,
>>> you are, once again, reading virgo intacta into Lk
>>> 2:36.
>>>       
>> HH: That's what the text implies.
>>     
>
> TT: It may imply that to non-Jewish readers. In any
> case, I do not see how you can prove the author's
> intent here.
>   

HH: The verse in Luke was not written to record Anna's medical 
disorders. It was written to give chronological and life background 
information about a godly woman who was waiting for divine promises 
about the Messiah to be fulfilled for the sake of Israel. The meaning I 
suggest is the meaning I have heard throughout my life, and it makes 
perfect sense. You have now read the TWOT article, which shows that the 
meaning is perfectly plausible.
>
>   
>>>  It might help to explain that a pregnant btwlh
>>> is not a contradiction or biological impossibility, not in the Jewish worldview (Chag. 14b-15a) where btwlh simply refers to a minor, i.e. a girl below
>>> puberty.
>>>       
>> HH: That may be a possible idea, but it is not the
>> idea in this verse.
>>     
>
>
> TT: How do you know that?
>   

HH: The idea here is that she was married for 7 years after her 
virginity, after which time she continued as a widow to the age of 84.
>  
>
>   
>>>  Thus Hanna's virginity (btwlyh) can refer to
>>> delayed puberty, that is, she experienced seven years of marital life before becoming a menstruant, which would be noteworthy in Judaism.
>>>   
>>>       
>> HH: This is not the idea in Luke 2
>>     
>
>
> TT: How do you know that?
>   

HH: The other idea is nonsensical in this context. The passage is 
obviously showing the basic breakdown in Anna's life stages, and there 
is nothing to hint that some extraordinary physical disorder is in view. 
You must understand how strange it would be for someone to be married 
for seven years and not even have reached puberty yet. It would not just 
be "noteworthy" as you suggested earlier; it would be freakish and 
tragic. There is nothing in the text to suggest such a state, and every 
reason to think that Anna moved from the virgin condition prior to 
marriage on to life with a husband. The text confirms that she was a 
pure woman before her marriage, and it may use an idiomatic expression. 
The idea I get is something like "having lived with a husband seven 
years after her virginity," or seven years after she presented the 
tokens of her virginity at the time of her marriage.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>
>   




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