[B-Greek] Luke 2:36
Harold Holmyard
hholmyard at ont.com
Fri Jan 5 08:18:44 EST 2007
Dear Tory,
>> HH: Why do you say there is an error? The forms look
>> to be plurals to
>> me, no different than the ones in Deuteronomy 22.
>>
>
>
> TT: But they are not plurals in Lev. 21:13; Jud.
> 11:37f; and Ezek. 23:3, 8; and 'btwlym' is not the
> term used in any of these passages.
>
HH: This is a Greek discussion group, not a Hebrew one, but let me
assure you that the word in question is plural in all these verses.
These are standard plural endings with suffixes, though you may be
unfamiliar with them. Hebrew words can be grammatical plurals and carry
a singular meaning, if that is the difficulty for you.
>
>> HH: If someone had a puberty
>> delayed until seven
>> years after their marriage, she would be the victim
>> of a physiological
>> disorder, and I've never heard of such a delayed
>> onset of puberty as
>> seven years after marriage. Having just read an
>> article on the subject,
>> it seems that it would be a disorder at the least:
>>
>
>
> TT: We are talking about a society where early
> marriages, and marriages with minors, was fairly
> commonplace. And although delayed puberty has specific
> diagnoses today, the fact of the matter is that if a
> girl below puberty was married, and if she did not
> experience her first menstral flow at the normal time,
> every day, week, month, or year that her first period
> was delayed during marital life, for whatever
> physiological reason, would be reckoned as a
> continuation of her status as a Betulah ("virgin")
> among religious Jews. An extended delay would be
> something noteworthy, and long remembered -- not as a
> disorder but as a mark of special uniqueness. You
> would need to live in a community obsessed with purity
> laws to appreciate this.
>
HH: As I said, this would be a tragic disorder, and there is no hint of
that in the text.
>
>
>>> TT: The Bible only provides snapshots of the language;but it is very clear that 'btwlh' requires qualification and does not, by itself, imply chastity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> HH: That's not the point. The point is that it can
>> imply chastity. That
>> is the meaning in some contexts.
>>
>
>
> TT: I think the qualifying clauses in Gen. 24:16 and
> Jud. 21:12 make it fairly clear that btwlh, by itself,
> does not imply chastity. We also have Est 2:17, and
> the context here is pretty clear as well. One night
> with the king meant goodbye to biological virginity.
> The LXX uses PARQENOS at Est 2:17, showing once again
> that the Greek term does not always mean virgo
> intacta.
>
HH: You have the article from TWOT that says the word can signify
chastity in some contexts; you have the BDAG material saying that for
parthenos and parthenia. The word is not "by itself" implying chastity
in Luke 2:36. It is in the context of someone moving from singleness to
marriage, where we know from the OT (Deuteronomy 22) that there were
rituals involved in demonstrating chastity. So Luke 2:36 is a perfect
setting for the word to imply chastity.
> HH: The verse in Luke was not written to record
> Anna's medical
> disorders. It was written to give chronological and
> life background
> information about a godly woman who was waiting for
> divine promises
> about the Messiah to be fulfilled for the sake of
> Israel. The meaning I
> suggest is the meaning I have heard throughout my
> life, and it makes
> perfect sense. You have now read the TWOT article,
> which shows that the
> meaning is perfectly plausible.
>
>
>
> TT: It also shows that a Jewish interpretation of a
> Jewish term, btwlh, is perfectly plausible at Lk.
> 2:36. It seems to me that you may be using
> "plausibility" differently than I am. If something is
> plausible you give it a voice, not a veto.
>
HH: The interpretation I am giving is also a Jewish interpretation.
> HH: The idea here is that she was married for 7
> years after her
> virginity, after which time she continued as a widow
> to the age of 84.
>
>
>
> TT: That's not how BDAG has it, but I agree it falls
> within the interpretive options. So does mine. Saying
> it is nonsensical or freakish simply reveals a lack of
> familiarity with orthodox Jewish religious customs,
> and the seriousness with which purity laws were and
> still are observed.
>
HH: I have BAGD, not BDAG, but BAGD says that parthenia refers to the
time of virginity and refers to Luke 2:36 with that meaning. BDAG also
says that the word refers to the time of virginity. So parthenia is
probably not talking about the time after Anna's husband died, for she
would not be a virgin then, though she would be chaste. I did not say
that your interpretation was freakish. I said the condition you describe
would be freakish. I think your interpretation is incorrect for the
passage.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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