[B-Greek] EN + human locative of sphere

Wayne Leman wayne_leman at sil.org
Tue Jan 9 01:41:34 EST 2007


>
> On Jan 8, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Wayne Leman wrote:
>
>> I am unaware that a non-human can have the
>> same semantic role as XRISTW or KURIW.
>
> Wayne,
>
> Could you elaborate on this semantic role?

I can try. And I think you've caught the fact that human is not really what 
I should have said. I don't know precisely what the semantic role is of 
XRISTW or KURIW when they are the objects of EN. After posting my last 
message I got to wondering if some inanimate objects have the same semantic 
role that is the object of my interest, e.g. EN TH SARKI in Rom. 7:5. I 
think I was taught that all of the objects of these EN phrases that interest 
me are locatives of sphere. But I'm not happy with that label. To me, it's 
not too much more than a label. I don't get any semantic explanation from 
it. And now Carl complicates matters even more--properly so--by suggesting 
that these may not be locatives at all, but, rather datives. In any case (so 
to speak, of course), I want to understand them better, whatever they are.

The ones that particularly interest me are very difficult to translate to 
natural English, and, as a translator, that piques my interest. They often 
have an overt or ellipsized verb of being, rather than an active verb 
associated with them.

>
> Jn 17:20 OU PERI TOUTWN DE ERWTW MONON, ALLA KAI PERI TWN PISTEUONTWN  DIA 
> TOU LOGOU AUTWN EIS EME,  21 hINA PANTES hEN WSIN, KAQWS SU,  PATER, EN 
> EMOI KAGW EN SOI, hINA KAI AUTOI EN hHMIN WSIN, hINA hO  KOSMOS PISTEUHi 
> hOTI SU ME APESTEILAS.
>
> The referent of PATER in  SU, PATER, EN EMOI KAGW EN SOI is non-human  in 
> the same way that  EN TWi DII is non-human. Could we exchange  "person" 
> for "human" so we could included PATER and ZEUS?

Yes, and I suspect even "person" will have to be exchanged for something 
broader to include examples such as EN TH SARKI.

> Would that  cause a problem for your project?

No, not at all. I would just like to know a couple of things:

1. Were these "natural" constructions in Greek, not just formations limited 
to N.T. authors? Would anyone have ever referred to someone as being EN 
KAISARI? If so, what would it have meant? I'd hope that we could get clues 
from such extrabiblical exx. to be able to understand the semantics of the 
biblical exx. better.

2. What was the semantic role of the object of these EN phrases? I 
understand true locative phrases. I understand clear instrumental phrases. 
But I don't understand these EN + "whatever" phrases. Sure, I've read a fair 
amount on them by exegetes and theologians, but I don't find the 
theologizing satisfying as a linguist. I'd like to understand their meaning 
better without reference to theology, esp. if they were forms that were 
uttered outside of theological contexts.

Wayne
----
Wayne Leman
Better Bibles Blog:
http://englishbibles.blogspot.com

>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
>
>
> 




More information about the B-Greek mailing list