[B-Greek] Questions about NT verbal aspect
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Jan 19 15:47:04 EST 2007
To extend your mechanical analogy a bit.
When you go to a mechanic to ask about a car, you don't want him to talk to you about foot-pounds of torque and tensile strength, etc. You have some concerns which you want answered in simple terms: "How reliable is it? Is it safe? What kind of fuel economy can I expect?" It he begins to speak in technical terms (assuming an average mechanic would know them himself), you will soon be lost and will gain nothing from asking him.
george
gfsomsel
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Webb <webb at selftest.net>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; Tory Thorpe <torythrp at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 2:22:30 PM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Questions about NT verbal aspect
I haven't followed all of this discussion, but I think I disagree with
George's analysis of the situation. Because people learn language as
children does not mean it's simple. The other possibility is that children's
minds are far more complex than we realize. Language is not simple. It
manifests every variety and level of complexity and subtlety that the human
mind can imagine and produce.
It's true that a person who understands the subtlety of a text does not have
to be a linguist to achieve that understanding. That's like a person who is
not a mechanic, but they've driven so many cars that they somehow know the
sound and feel of a car that runs well. And they can safely operate just
about any vehicle they step into. The experienced driver corresponds to an
experienced native speaker of a language. But if a person is not thoroughly
experienced, and does not understand a text, or is not sure they understand
a text, it may only be with the help of a linguist that they can decide
between two or more possible interpretations. That is like a person who is
trying to decide between two cars of an unfamiliar make, that don't "feel"
like the cars he or she is used to. That person can't discriminate between
the two vehicles on the basis of what they know and/or can gather from a few
books on their own. They may take them to a friend who is a mechanic, and
ask the mechanic which is the better car. And the mechanic can explain his
or her preference for one vehicle over the other on the basis of explicit
physical principles, rather than more or less instinctually, "by feel". That
is the linguist. Alternatively, one could ask a friend who is intimately
familiar with those two makes to drive them and say "how they feel", and
"which one feels better". That person might well make a very sound judgment.
That person would be the native speaker. But here's the rub--there are no
living native speakers of Koine Greek. So we may need to go to a mechanic.
What the mechanic lacks in "native feel" for the vehicle is to a significant
degree compensated by their understanding of the necessary mechanical
principles that all cars have in common.
Webb Mealy
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:53 AM
To: Tory Thorpe; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Questions about NT verbal aspect
It is true that there are authors in the NT which are easier to understand
than others. There are also authors using the English language who are more
easily understood than are others. Generally, however, it isn't necessary
to resort to some esoteric linguistic theory in order to understand any of
them. Usually a dictionary at hand is sufficient in the more difficult
cases. If you learn the basics of Greek and have the tools handy [READ:
BDAG], it should be possible to come to at least a basic understanding of
any passage. The greater your acquaintance with the Greek of various
authors with various difficulties will increase your ability to understand
so that you can more fully appreciate those which are more difficult. It is
not linguistic theory which improves the understanding.
george
gfsomsel
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Tory Thorpe <torythrp at yahoo.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:18:06 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Questions about NT verbal aspect
I've read that the author of Matthew's Gospel was thoroughly conversant with
Greek; for example, by his usage of the genitive absolute, paronomasia, 70+
classical words, linking clauses with MEN, etc. Does this not suggest that
this particular work was intended to be read by people well educated in the
language?
Tory Thorpe
George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
Apparently it's not only the linguists who have difficulty communicating, it
seems I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I was not directing my
comments regarding lack of clarity and failure to communicate at either
James or Jonathan. It is simply my contention that linguists attempt to make
to whole process entirely too complicated. The people who spoke Greek in the
first centuries of this era were not geniuses. Though a few undoubtedly were
geniuses as today we have a few. Most, however, were just ordinary people
"like you and like me and I mean to be one too" [forget the last part of
that, it's a line from the hymnal]. Language could not have been too
difficult to comprehend so that one needed a secret decoder ring to discover
what it meant. Even though the possibility existed of being quite precise,
there were undoubtedly many who mangled Alexander's Greek just as today they
mangle the Queen's English. What it needs is the KISS treatment [Keep It
Simple,
Stupid].
george
gfsomsel
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall Buth
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: Randall Buth
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 5:17:08 AM
Subject: [B-Greek] Questions about NT verbal aspect
George's comments may illustrate why all people can successfully
learn languages through usage, but most often get tied up in knots
when trying to enter a language through analysis.
On the other hand, I found James' and Jonathan's comment rather clear
and straightforward.
I would encourage any student to approach the question with the
following ATTITUDE:
"These people are trying to describe something very simple and very
basic, something that is part of every language system. If the words
for the description are new or fuzzy, they will become clear through
usage of the language.
Yes, it is as simple and basic as the difference between 'I walked to
the store' versus 'I was walking to the store,' as between 'to walk'
and 'to be walking'.
Of course, Greeks use this distinction in places where English
speakers may not. Every language is idiomatic in that regard. Greek
is concerned with having this difference marked whenever a verb is
used, while English often ignores the distinction as 'not worth the
bother'. English speakers might simply say 'to walk' where a Greek
might prefer 'to be walking'."
Please note, the above does not answer the question with a list of
specific situations for each usage, it refers to the ATTITUDE. This
is basic, this is easy. Often, the knowledge that the category is
something easy and basic removes stress from the language learner,
who can then proceed, knowing that in due time, 'just around the
corner', everything will be clear.
Example: students often puzzle over words like LABE 'take', ANASTHQI
'get up', DOS, 'give', when these are presented within a 'grammar-
translation' framework (=grammar-translation is the framework that
99% of Greek courses are taught in. They ask themselves, 'what is
aoristic about LABE and DOS' [or LABEIN and DOUNAI]?' and typically
start off confused, taking LAMBANE and DIDOU as somehow more basic
because they were usually presented first, [and LAMBANEIN and
DIDONAI].) Fortunately, if students hear and use these inside the
classroom, LABE and DOS become 'normal' words for 'give' and 'take'
and understandable. They become friends before they are introduced
with their 'last name' "aorist". When the students later meet and
learn that there are words like LAMBANE 'be taking' and DIDOU 'be
giving', they pick up a natural increment in meaning in a new context
where something more open-ended is being referred to. How do you
think little children pick up this distinction? It's not rocket-
science, as they say. Afterwards, the distinction and overall system
can be presented with a lower experience of stress. And they start to
'internalize' the distinction. They are actually building a different
kind of gridwork inside their heads, almost the same, but 'wired
differently'. You're all welcomed to a summer ELLHNIKH schol� if
interested. (Teachers should write specific emails if interested in
visiting.)
Randall Buth
Biblical Language Center
randallbuth at gmail.com
www.biblicalulpan.org
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