[B-Greek] Luke 5:3 APO THS GHS - minor correction
Elliot Poe
Elliot.Poe at gmail.com
Tue Jun 26 13:22:11 EDT 2007
I believe Jonathan is simply asking whether or not, in theory, APO can
go with either the finite verb HRWTHSEN or the infinitive EPANAGAGEIN if
the rest of the verse were removed. In other words, is there any way to
distinguish which word APO goes with on strictly grammatical terms, or
are both possibilities.
Perhaps one could make the argument that it could go with either, but
APO seems to me to go most naturally with the verb of motion. It seems
odd with a verb of saying. Undoubtedly, you could find an exception, though.
Yours,
Elliot Poe
George F Somsel wrote:
>ἐμβὰς [EMBAS] is a participle, not a prepositional phrase. What am I missing here? If you mean that a participial phrase would have been used to indicate that he was standing on the shore rather than ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς [APO THS GHS], my understanding of Jeffrey's question is not that Jesus was SPEAKING "from the shore" but rather that (assuming the proposed situation) Peter was to move "from the shore." If that is your suggestion, then it probably would have been
>
>ἑστηκὸς ἐπὶ τὴν τῆς γῆς [hESTHKOS EPI THS GHS]
> (I think it would still be gen, but see Re 12.18)
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>
>Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>defend the truth till death.
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Webb <webb at selftest.net>
>To: Webb <webb at selftest.net>; B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:21:27 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 5:3 APO THS GHS - minor correction
>
>
>Excuse me--my second sentence should read,
>
>If one were trying to say that Jesus asked Peter to move the boat while himself standing on the shore, one would typically begin the sentence with a participial phrase rather than USING a prepositional phrase.
>
>Webb Mealy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Webb
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:15 AM
>To: 'B-Greek'
>Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 5:3 APO THS GHS
>
>Dear Jonathan,
>
>Your phrase is meaningful, but it still means to put the boat out from the shore a little. If one were trying to say that Jesus asked Peter to move the boat while himself standing on the shore, one would typically begin the sentence with a participial phrase rather than with a prepositional phrase. For example, see:
>
>Matt 20:32
>Mark 10:49
>Luke 18:11
>Luke 18:40
>Luke 19:8
>Acts 2:14
>Acts 17:22
>Acts 27:21
>
>Webb Mealy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robie
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:43 AM
>To: B-Greek
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 5:3 APO THS GHS
>
>EGRAPSEN ho George Somsel:
>
>
>>I'm not sure what you intend by "taken alone." No phrase in any writing, whether in the scriptures or the Quran or Descartes, can be taken apart from its context. It is clear here that the 3rd sg usage refers to Jesus. When it says
>>
>>ἐμβὰς δὲ εἰς ἓν τῶν πλοίων, ὃ ἦν Σίμωνος, ἠρώτησεν αὐτὸν …
>>EMBAS DE EIS hEN TWN PLOIWN, hO HN SIMWNOS, HRWTHSEN AUTON …
>>
>>The participle ἐμβὰς [EMBAS], being a nom sg, must refer to the subject of the verb ἠρώτησεν [HRWTHSEN] which continues to be Jesus so that there is no question of his remaining on the shore from which the boat was to pull out according to his request.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yes, I know that - in fact, I think I said quite clearly that this is
>not ambiguous in context, and I'm well aware that "a text without a
>context is only a pretext."
>
>But I'm not trying to understand the meaning of this phrase in context,
>I'm trying to understand whether APO THS GHS could also mean "from
>shore", and whether the phrase "HRWTHSEN AUTON APO THS GHS" could mean
>"he said to him, from the shore ...", if the context were different. I
>always mess up when I try to compose Greek texts, but let me try to
>create such a context for the phrase:
>
>EMBAS SIMWN EN HEN TWN PLOIWN,
>ESTH DE iIHSOUS PARA THN LIMNHN
>HRWTHSEN AUTON APO THS GHS EPANAGAGEIN OLIGON
>
>In this context (corrected as needed to create real Greek ;->), would HRWTHSEN AUTON APO THS GHS be a meaningful phrase, or is there something besides the context that should have tipped me off?
>
>Jonathan
>
>
>
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