[B-Greek] Luke 8:27
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 29 10:16:25 EDT 2007
While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the participle as the nearer referent.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>
> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse. The
> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …" You are correct
> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object
> here. EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it
> also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would
> indicate his more immediate origin.
I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
the shore ... "
If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
> point them out.
This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
who ... "
There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some
influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance
there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>
> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
> THS POLEWS ...
>
> Note the repetition of AUTW.
Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
(EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>
>
>
> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS
> EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA
> OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>
>
>
> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
> ever?
>
>
>
> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)
> the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
> the demoniac?
>
>
>
> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text
> of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't
> hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a
> certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>
>
>
> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>
>
>
> rod rogers
>
> Bargersville, In
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