[B-Greek] Luke 8:27

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 29 13:36:09 EDT 2007


On Jun 29, 2007, at 12:35 PM, Rod Rogers wrote:

>
>
>> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
>> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
>> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
>> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
>> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
>> the shore ... "
>
> Carl,
> One thing I didn't know at the beginning is that hUPANTAW always  
> takes the
> dative, at least it always takes the dative in the NT, it seems.  
> That makes
> it understandable to me. Saying that, I don't think we need to  
> consider this
> a dative absolute or anything else. It's just the complement to the  
> verb
> hUPHNTHSEN like you say.

I'm glad you agree with that.

> One of the main questions that I had with this verse is that  
> Matthew 8:28
> say that "KAI ELQONTOS AUTOU EIS TO PERAN EIS THN XWRAN TWN GADARHNWN
> hUPHNTHSAN AUTW DUO DAIMONIZOMENOI EK TWN MNYMEIWN EXERXOMENOI".  
> Matthew
> 8:28 says that two demon possessed met Him, Jesus, and they "come  
> to/meet
> him" "from the tombs". Luke 8:27 says "hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS  
> POLEWS
> EXWN DAIMONIA", a certain man from/out of the city goes to meet  
> Him, Jesus.

(you need to be consistent with transliteration: you can't use "X"  
for both Xi and Chi. I personally prefer to use "C" for Chi, "X" for  
Xi; nevertheless I think we can follow your transcribed text)

> My question still remains, did the demoniac (in Luke 8:27) come out  
> of the
> city to meet Jesus or did the demoniac come out of the tombs to  
> meet Jesus?
> Can EK be used here to say the demoniac was "of/from the  
> city" (like I'm
> "from" Bargersville) or does it say that the demoniac goes to meet  
> Jesus
> "from/out of" the city? That's what I can't decide. I have no problem
> translating each verse on it's own grammar and rectifying theology  
> after
> translating. It seem some people want to translate Luke 8:27 "in  
> light of"
> Matthew 8:28 and Mark 5:2.

I would be somewhat leery of trying to harmonize the synoptic  
accounts of the Gadarene demoniac(s), however many there may have  
been. I personally think it's better methodologically to consider  
each account in the context of its own gospel narrative.

Let's consider Luke's version more fully in context:

Luke 8:27 ἐξελθόντι δὲ αὐτῷ ἐπὶ τὴν  
γῆν ὑπήντησεν ἀνήρ τις ἐκ τῆς  
πόλεως ἔχων δαιμόνια καὶ χρόνῳ  
ἱκανῷ οὐκ ἐνεδύσατο ἱμάτιον καὶ  
ἐν οἰκίᾳ οὐκ ἔμενεν ἀλλ᾿ ἐν τοῖς  
μνήμασιν.

EXELQONTI DE AUTWi EPI THN GHN hUPHTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS ECWN  
DAIMONIA KAI CRONWi hIKANWi OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIAi OUK  
EMENEN ALL' EN TOIS MNHMASIN.

While ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS could conceivably construe with  
hUPHNTHSEN, it seems to me somewhat more likely that the phrase means  
"a man of (this) town" -- i.e. "a Gadarene." The succeeding  
description certainly indicates that he didn't reside at home but  
rather in the tombs -- that's consistent with the Marcan and  
Matthaean accounts, even if Luke formulates the opening to his  
account somewhat differently.

Carl

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Rod Rogers" <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; <b- 
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>
>> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse.  The
>> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land ."  You are correct
>> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object
>> here.  EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it
>> also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would
>> indicate his more immediate origin.
>
> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
> the shore ... "
>
> If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
> clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
> looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
> will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>
> I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
>> point them out.
>
> This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
> narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
> also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
> saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
> clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
> ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
> who ... "
>
> There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some
> influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance
> there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>
>> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>
>> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>> THS POLEWS ...
>>
>> Note the repetition of AUTW.
>
> Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
> and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
> lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
> absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
> that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
> (EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
> phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
> not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>
>>
>>
>> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS
>> EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA
>> OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>> ever?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)
>> the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>> the demoniac?
>>
>>
>>
>> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text
>> of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't
>> hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a
>> certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>
>>
>>
>> rod rogers
>>
>> Bargersville, In
>
>
>
>
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