[B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

Anthony Buzzard anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com
Tue Mar 27 20:03:58 EDT 2007


George, I appreciate this about conditional 
sentences. What one cannot argue, though is that 
sentences introduced by EI with the indicative or 
EANPER, or other conjuctions like it, with the 
subjunctive-- that these exclude the possibility 
of the "condition" becoming reality. They neither 
confirm nor deny, as I think I hear you say. So 
that "If you continue in the faith" cannot mean 
because of the indicative,  "If as the only 
possible thing that can happen and nothing else can, you remain....
It leaves open the question as to what may in fact happen.

Anthony.

  At 07:54 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>Heb 3.14
>
>
>
>
>METOXOI GAR TOU XRISTOU GEGONEN, EANPER THN 
>ARXHN THS hUPOTASEWS MEXRI TELEOUS BEBAIAN KATASXWMEN
>This is known as a Third Class Condition or a 
>Future More Probable Condition.  Despite its 
>name, it says nothing regarding the probability 
>of its occurance.  I really see no great 
>difference regarding any assertion of likelihood 
>in a Future More Probable Condition than in a 
>Simple Condition.  It may happen or it may 
>not.  It simply connects to protasis with the 
>apodosis so that if one occurs then we are to 
>expect the other to occur.  Cf. Mt 15.14
>
>Protasis:
>Ï„Ï
φλὸς δὲ Ï„Ï
φλὸν ἐὰν ὁδηγῇ
>
>Apodosis
>ἀμφότεροι εἰς βόθÏ
νον πεσοῦνται
>
>
>Will the blind lead the blind?  Perhaps.  It has 
>probably happened.  That doesn't mean that we 
>can assert that it will happen in any specific instance.
>
>
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:32:59 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>
>George, thank you. This clarifies. Where we have 
>a subjunctive after EI (or its equivalent) would 
>we have more indication of the reality of the 
>conditional element. I am thinking now of Heb. 
>3:14 where the protasis is introduced by EANPER and a subjunctive follows.
>Anthony Buzzard.
>
>
>At 07:24 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>I'm not affirming anything regarding the 
>>condition (and therefore the conclusion) being 
>>fulfilled or not fulfilled.  It is a simple IF 
>>X THEN Y condition.  Perhaps X will occur and 
>>then so will Y.  On the other hand, perhaps neither will happen.
>>
>>george
>>gfsomsel
>>_________
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:21:32 PM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>
>>George, If so then, our English translations 
>>are misleading?  In English we would hear a 
>>real condition. But you are affirming that in 
>>Greek, because of the indicative after 
>>EI,  there is no possibility of the "condition" 
>>not being fulfilled? That it is inevitable that 
>>they will continue and that the possibility of 
>>them not continuing is our of the question.
>>Do others have views here?
>>Anthony Buzzard.
>>
>>At 07:13 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>No, it is not a real condition.  It is a 
>>>condition whose truth is assumed for the 
>>>purposes of argument WHETHER OR NOT it ever actually occurs.
>>>
>>>george
>>>gfsomsel
>>>_________
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:02:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>>
>>>George, Thank you for finding this for me. Am 
>>>I right to think that the condition expressed 
>>>in the protasis is nevertheless a real 
>>>condition, such that not remaining is an 
>>>actual possibility, though not one expected by Paul?
>>>Anthony Buzzard
>>>
>>>
>>>At 06:52 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>>22 NUNI DE APOKATHLLACEN EN TWi SWMATI THS 
>>>>SARKOS AUTOU DIA TOU QANTOU PARASTHSAI hUMAS 
>>>>hAGIOUS KAI AMWMOUS KAI ANEGKLHTOUS KATENWPION AUTOU
>>>>
>>>>23 EI GE EPIMENETE THi PISTEI
>>>>
>>>>Note that here the apodosis (APOKATHLLACEN) 
>>>>precedes the protasis (EI EPIMENETE).  This 
>>>>is what has been called a First Class 
>>>>Condition in which the condition is ASSUMED 
>>>>to be true for the arguement's sake.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. First Class Condition (Assumed True for Argument’s Sake)
>>>>a. Definition
>>>>The first class condition indicatess the 
>>>>assumption of truth for the sake of argument. 
>>>>The normal idea, then, is if—and let us 
>>>>assume tthat this is true for the sake of 
>>>>argument—then
 . This class uses the particle 
>>>>le εἰ with the indicative (in any 
>>>>tense) in the protasis. In the apodosis, any 
>>>>mood and any tense can occur. This is a 
>>>>frequent conditional clause, occurring about 300 times in the NT.
>>>>
>>>>Daniel B. Wallace. (1999; 2002). Greek 
>>>>Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax 
>>>>of the New Testament (690). Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>george
>>>>gfsomsel
>>>>_________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:35:13 PM
>>>>Subject: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>>>
>>>>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>> >May  I please ask for your expert opinion. In Col 1:23 we have an EI
>>>> >(if) with an indicative.
>>>>Is it true that when IE is followed by an indicative the condition is
>>>>not really a condition? In other words does the Greek mean "If, as is
>>>>absolutely certain to be the case, you continue...."
>>>>Or is the sense truly conditional, ie "If and only if you
>>>>continue.... otherwise...."
>>>>Can one say that the indicative after EI cancels the idea that
>>>>anything but certainty is implied?.
>>>>Certainly in English one hears in Col 1:23 
>>>>"On condition that you persist...."
>>>>And the further statement "not shifting...." seems strongly to imply
>>>>that such a shifting is a real possibility.
>>>>Anthony Buzzard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Anthony Buzzard
>>>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
>>>>
>>>>---
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>Anthony Buzzard
>>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
>>>
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>>Anthony Buzzard
>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
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www.restorationfellowship.org 


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