[B-Greek] John 2:1 Who was invited?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun May 6 20:55:43 EDT 2007


On May 6, 2007, at 6:48 PM, Mark Cain wrote:

> Perhaps you are unaware that there is a discipline of "reading  
> between the
> lines" as you call it.  Please accept my apologies as I reject your  
> advice.

My advice has been rejected by many for many reasons. I have argued
myself that it is necessary to read between the lines when attempting to
understand Paul's letters which quite regularly concern matters of  
common
knowledge to his audience and himself, matters that are often unknown or
unclear to modern readers. There's a danger of speculation there, of  
course,
and I think that an interpreter of the Pauline letters needs to be  
cognizant
of the speculative and tentative nature of interpretations that are  
based on
guessing games. I personally think that the gospels are different and  
that
the narrators have formulated their stories in such a way as to  
reveal to
the audience all that they (the narrators) deem important for  
understanding
their stories. But in this forum our concern is really with the Greek  
text
as a Greek text, and the direct question you raise is certainly  
focused on
the Greek text of John 2:1-2.

> But if your discipline is Greek,

The discipline of all B-Greekers is Greek -- inasmuch as we state
clearly in the FAQ that "list-members will be assumed to have at least
a working knowledge of Biblical Greek."

> can you please answer for me:  "can EKLHQH
> DE KAI only be translated as additive?"

The only other alternative to reading EKLHQH DE KAI as
additive that I can conceive here is that the KAI hO IHSOUS KAI
hOI MAQHTAI AUTOU should be read as "BOTH Jesus AND
his disciples ..." -- but that seems very improbable to me since we
have the singular verb EKLHQH with hO IHSOUS and the
common formulaic KAI "X" indicated additional subjects to be
included in that singular verb. In my judgment, then, EKLHQH
DE KAI is additive: "Jesus TOO had been invited, and his
disciples."

Carl W. Conrad

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: "Mark Cain" <mark at markcain.com>
> Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:1 Who was invited?
>
>
>>
>> On May 6, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Mark Cain wrote:
>>
>>> Pardon me for not making my train of thought clearer.
>>>
>>> Since it appears to me that Mary, the mother of Jesus, assumes
>>> responsibilities beyond the role of a typical guest such as 1)
>>> concern for
>>> the depleted wine supply and 2) access to give directions to the
>>> servants at
>>> the feast, could it be that she is there in a supportive role; but
>>> Jesus is
>>> there as a guest?  Could the words EKLHQH DE indicate this contrast
>>> of roles
>>> (supportive vs guest)? or are you saying that EKLHQH DE KAI can
>>> only be
>>> translated as additive?
>>
>> I think the implication of EKLHQH DE KAI is that Mary had been
>> invited and that Jesus and his disciples had been invited also. Now
>> that doesn't preclude that Mary is present in a larger capacity. She
>> may be kin to the groom; we aren't told that. My own view would be
>> that this narrative introduction tells us all that we need to know to
>> make sense of the narrative that follows, i.e., that there's no need
>> to try reading between the lines.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>>> To: "Mark Cain" <mark at markcain.com>
>>> Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:1 Who was invited?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 6, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Mark Cain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In John 2:1 ff we find the account of the Marriage Feast in  
>>>>> Cana of
>>>>> Galilee.
>>>>> Verse 1 states that the mother of Jesus was there -- but verse 2
>>>>> says that
>>>>> Jesus was invited. The verb to "invite" or "call" is 3rd Person
>>>>> Singular
>>>>> Aorist Passive Indicative.  Would the structure of EKLHQH DE  
>>>>> show a
>>>>> hint of
>>>>> emphasis with a contrast of the prior statement i.e. "was there"
>>>>> vs. "But
>>>>> invited"?
>>>>>
>>>>> My reading of the context shows that Mary may be more familiar  
>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> feast than the "typical" guest;
>>>>> 1) it is stated that she "was there" as opposed to being invited
>>>>> 2) she is concerned with the depleted wine supply
>>>>> 3) she is comfortable in directing the servants
>>>>
>>>> Text: 2 EKLHQH DE KAI hO IHSOUS KAI hOI MAQHTAI
>>>> AUTOU EIS TON GAMON
>>>>
>>>> I don't see the point of your question. Verse two is not a  
>>>> matter of
>>>> contrast
>>>> but of addition: "And Jesus and his disciples had also been invited
>>>> to the
>>>> wedding." I think the two opening verses are simply introducing
>>>> the key
>>>> participants in the account being presented.
>>>>
>>>> Carl W. Conrad




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