[B-Greek] No such or no other?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon May 7 15:23:20 EDT 2007


On May 7, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Webb wrote:

> Dear Josh,
>
> TOIAUTOS means "such", not "other". In more natural English, you could
> render it as "that kind of". Paul is talking about the practice of  
> women
> praying and prophesying with their heads uncovered, which he  
> disagrees with.
> So he says, "we don't have that kind of custom/practice, nor do the  
> churches
> of God". I think NASB is trying to help the readers because Paul,  
> in capping
> off this section of his letter, is jumping back over vv. 14-15 and
> answering, for himself, the question he posed in v. 13. But they  
> themselves
> put a marginal note that "other" is literally "such".

FWIW, the nom. masc. sg. is TOIOUTOS; the vowel of the second syllable
is "A" for the feminine forms, "O" for the masculine and neuter:
TOIOUTOS, TOIAUTH, TOIOUTO -- exactly as with the article ( fem.
originallly hA with a long A) and hOUTOS, hAUTH, TOUTO.

> An interesting side light on 11:16 is Lattimore's rendering of EI  
> DE TIS
> DOKEI FILONEIKOS EINAI: "But if I seem to be arbitrary". That  
> sounds rather
> French: "But if one seems [i.e. I seem] to be arbitrary". How  
> common is that
> in Koine Greek?

Interesting question. It seems to me that Lattimore has done two  
different things
here: (1) he's making explicit what's only implicit in the Greek by  
converting the
"anyone" to "I"; and (2) he's softening the sense of FILONEIKOS by  
making
it "arbitrary." I rather question that; one of the things that  
stirkes me as fascinating
about Paul is the extent to which he draws his metaphors from Greek  
cultural
usage, probably more so than from Judaic -- his metaphors of athletic  
contention
are some of his most striking. FILONEIKOS goes to the very heart of the
traditional Hellenic (and surely, to a considerable extent, the  
Hellenistic too):
contentiousness, one-up-manship, competitiveness. I think that if I were
Englishing this, I'd underscore that adjective and keep the  
indefiniteness of the
TIS: "But if anyone appears determined to have the upper hand, ... "

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Josh Parsley
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 10:47 AM
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [B-Greek] No such or no other?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello,This is my first time to post or reply anything on the list  
> but I've
> been "listening" for while.  I want to thank everyone who  
> contributes to the
> list.1 Corinthians 11:16  EI DE TIS DOKEI FILONEIKOS EINAI hHMEIS  
> TOIAUTHN
> SUNHQEIAN OUK ECOMEN OUDE hAI EKKLHSIAI TOU QEOUBut if any man seem  
> to be
> contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.  
> (KJV)But
> if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice,  
> nor have
> the churches of God. (NASB)I'm still a "very little greek" so my  
> knowledge
> is small, but growing.  I'm having trouble understanding why  
> "TOIAUTHN" is
> translated as "other" in the NASB along with several other  
> translations I
> have seen.  These two translations I've posted above seem to bring two
> different meanings.  The KJV seems to say " if anyone is  
> contentious we
> don't have such a custom, so don't worry about it."  The NASB seems  
> to say
> "if anyone is contentious we have no other custom so don't argue  
> with me."
> I guess it could just
>  be my interpretation but the words "such" and "other" seem to  
> convey two
> different meanings.   Which one best captures the idea "TOIAUTHN"  
> is meant
> to convey?  Which translation (or if you suggest another) seems to  
> carry the
> proper thought into English from Greek?Thanks!Josh  
> ParsleyFayetteville, AR
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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