[B-Greek] Fwd: John 9.25c WN ARTI
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue May 8 17:22:36 EDT 2007
This is Rod Decker's response to Mitch Larramore's question this
morning about a present participle representing an imperfect tense. I
don't think there's anything here that contradicts what Alex Hopkins
said about the matter, but it's a lot more than I could produce.
Begin forwarded message:
> Forwarded for: "Decker, Rod J." <rjdecker at bbc.edu>
> Date: May 8, 2007 2:17:07 PM EDT
> To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] John 9.25c WN ARTI
>
> Thanks for the forward, Carl. I've (very unfortunately!) been
> inactive on bgreek for far too many years. Program changes/
> additions here have made my life "full" in recent years and I've
> been unable to make time to even read bgreek. That's a shame since
> I learned a great deal from the interaction there--and particularly
> your comments. But, *without reading the thread of which this is a
> part* (always a dangerous thing to do!), here are a few thoughts
> that you may post if you think them to be useful in whatever
> ongoing discussion is in progress.
>
> Although I don't normally refer to participles "taking the place
> of" finite forms, if one were to describe it that way, I'd suggest
> that it is only so for finite verbs in subordinate clauses. That
> is, one *rarely* finds a participle with no finite verb in the
> sentence. One reason that a speaker/writer may chose to use a
> participle rather than a finite form is to include verbal
> information without that statement becoming the (or "a") main idea.
> The non-finite forms express secondary or subordinate ideas.
>
> Thus in the example cited from John 9:25, the man's main statement
> is "I see now." The first clause in that sentence, expressed by the
> participle, expresses a related, but subordinate idea: I was blind.
> We would typically describe such an adverbial participle as
> concessive since the relationship between WN and BLEPW is one of
> deliberate contrast--in spite of which; thus: A is true *even
> though* B is/was true. So I'd translate: "One thing I know,
> although I was blind, now I see."
>
> Since I *haven't* read the thread, I don't know what may have been
> discussed or of interest, but let me add a few notes re. aspect, etc.
>
> The aspect of OIDA, as a perfect form, is stative. The speaker is
> not referring to having learned something, but to the present state
> of his knowledge. That it is a *present* state is obvious from: the
> context (narrative of events in vv 1-23) and the deliberate
> temporal contrast of the participle and the finite verb with the
> deictic marker ARTI.
>
> The hOTI introduces direct "discourse" (i.e., the content of his
> knowledge), so it is not necessary to represent hOTI explicitly in
> English.
>
> WN has no aspect since there is no choice in the forms of EIMI
> (formally, they are all imperfective forms; there is no choice of a
> perfective or stative). Any description of the action (aspect or
> Aktionsart or time) must therefore come from the context--in this
> case by contrast with the finite clause.
>
> Although translated adequately in English by the simple "I see,"
> BLEPW is imperfective; that is, the man refers to his seeing as a
> process--which makes good sense, though it is not particularly
> "noteworthy" since it's the most obvious/natural way to say it.
>
> That he describes his present ability to see (rather than his
> experience in the immediate past, i.e., the time spanned in the
> events from v. 7 to v. 24) is specified by the deictic marker ARTI.
>
> I don't think much more can be indicated by the grammar. If we try
> to slice it more finely than that, we're probably asking questions
> that the text does not intend to answer. There *are* limits as to
> what a text can say!
>
> (Without the context of the discussion, I'm not sure how reference
> to HMHN fits in since I don't find that form in John 9--unless EIMI
> TUFLOS! :)
>
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> Rodney J. Decker, Th.D.
> Assoc. Professor of New Testament
> Baptist Bible Seminary
> www.NTResources.com
> Permanent contact info:
> http://public.xdi.org/=roddecker
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:39 AM
> To: Mitch Larramore
> Cc: Webb; B Greek; Decker, Rod J.
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 9.25c WN ARTI
>
>
> On May 7, 2007, at 11:21 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>
>> hEN OIDA, hOTI TUFLOS WN ARTI BLEPW
>>
>> --- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> More simply, the present participle can take the place of an
>>> imperfect as well as a present indicative. This is:
>>>
>>> "That (though) I was blind, I now see."
>>>
>>
>> What is going on within the language that allows this substitution
>> from a Present Participle WN to an Imperfect finite HMHN? And is it
>> common?
>
> This has to do with the fact that the Finite verb tenses are
> generally temporal in nature, while the participle and infinitive
> are aspectual.
>
> You know that an aorist participle can have the force of a perfect
> or pluperfect participle: e.g., TAUTA POIHSAS, APHLQEN = "Having
> done that, he left" or "When he had done that, he left."
>
> The participle used in narrative formulations can represent
> anything that a finite verb in that tense/aaspect system can.
>
> Alternatively for TUFLOS WN ARTI BLEPW
> you might English the construction as:
> "Having been blind all my life, I now see."
> I.e., WN means "continually being" but doesn't indicate when the
> "being" started. It might be up to the present moment or recent
> moment indicated by ARTI. If Rod Decker would care to comment on
> this or any other of what we used to call the "aspect geeks" (back in
> 97 or 98), they might be able to deal with this more clearly --
> I've never been one to talk very adequately about aspect.
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
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