[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
John Wilking
jcwilking at yahoo.com
Tue May 22 21:52:49 EDT 2007
George,
Sorry, I wasn't using the English category of complement but a broader one used by some linguists, though there isn't real uniformity. I'm using it in a broad way, the items in the semantic and syntactic scope of the verb, (the items in the VP minus the predicate, if you will). The verb meaning is indicated and restricted by its complement. The English translation of LOGIZOMAI must be consistent with the semantics of the words and grammatical markers within the scope of the Greek word. Thus the word "credit" as it is defined in English must be able to "credit faith," "credit it to a person," and "credit it as righteousness," or at least agreeable with them even if it doesn't have that much scope And "credit" just doesn't have that kind of meaning in English. Try it in another sentence. "The President credited his wife's trust to her as a good thing." It sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker.
John Wilking
George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
You seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a passive construction and therefore doesn't require a complement (i.e. direct object or accusative). We can illustrate this by an English sentence. If I were to say, "The hank has credited fifty dollars to your account", this would be an active statement having a direct object of "fifty dollars." If, however, I were to change the sentence to a passive construction it might then be "Fifty dollars was credited to your account", and the complement disappears since it is now the subject. Similarly, we might have "God credited Abraham's trust to his account", and the object would be "Abraham's trust." If we transform this to a passive, it might then be "Abraham's trust was credited to his account (by God)" and now has no direct object. The passage makes perfectly good sense as it stands.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:03:42 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
George,
Books and temples are are well and good but we are still restricted by the complement of the verb. The complement completes the idea. If our equivalent doesn't make sense with the complement, we need to find one that does. I think the problem we've had is that we don't have a verb in English that will easily take the complete structure. I think we should distinguish between verbs that don't make sense and verbs that don't take certain grammatical patterns.
John Wilking
George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
While I don't desire to get into a theological discussion, the concept that God keeps books is very old going back to Akkadian epic. One of the functions of the temples was to function as a depository of records of transactions. This is even exemplified in the Apocalypse where the Lamb opens the seven-sealed scroll and finds further record in the mention of the "Book of Life." That the text should speak of a reckoning of something to one's account does not therefore seem surprising or out of place. I think you need to give the matter further consideration.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
To: Bryant J. Williams III <bjwvmw at com-pair.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:43:27 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
Bryant,
I've never even heard of the distinctions you're making. My question is from the perspective of a lexicographer. May I create for you an example from an English dictionary. "Open" has about forty-two meanings. The seventh meaning is "free from ice" followed by the example "the lake is open." Imagine with me...the word "open", being the main entry is like the Greek word LOGIZOMAI we would look up in BDAG. "Free from ice" is like BDAG's definition "credit," and finally "the lake is open" is like the syntactic setting BDAG provides "credit someth to someone as someth."
What if Webster's had provided a different example, something like "open book" which is from meaning five. It wouldn't work. You can take "free from ice" and put it in the place of open to get "the lake is free from ice" but you can't put it in "free from ice book" because it doesn't make sense. Putting "credit" in "credit something to someone as something" doesn't make sense in English because the verb credit doesn't have a meaning that takes that kind of complement pattern.
Thanks,
John
"Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw at com-pair.net> wrote:
Dear John,
Since you are referring to Romans 4:3, which is also quoting Genesis 15:6
(LXX), then the text should be indicated.
Romans 4:3,
TI GAR hH GRAFH LEGEI? EPISTEUSEN DE ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAR ELOGISQH AUTWi
EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
Genesis 15:6,
KAI EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
NOTE: Same verse is quoted in
Galatians 3:6,
EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
James 2:23,
EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
You will notice that from EPISTEUSEN forward that is quoted identically.
Thus, for Paul, ELOGISQH is the Accounting Term, "to credit, to place on
account, count to one's account." Therefore, Paul is stating that when
Abraam (Abraham) believed, God credited that belief as righteousness (cf.
also James).
It is all one and the same in meaning. The question that lies behind your
question is, What type of righteousness was being credited? Is it judicial
(Paul) or ethical (James)? Those questions need to be answered off list
since there is difference of opinion on imputed or infused righteousness,
etc.
En Xristwi,
Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilking"
To: "George F Somsel"
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
George,
I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is whether the
proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author asserts. Which
meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as
"count something to someone as something?" Or which meaning of "credit" is
it referring to when it translates "credit something to someone as
something?"
John Wilking
George F Somsel wrote:
Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are differing
views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In the Apocalypse it is
viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that
??"???????, ????? ??????????-?? ?"??? ?????????????? ???????
?????????-?????? ?"????, ?f??????????-?????, ??????"?????,
??.?"?? ????f?????????, ??????? ?? ???O?????f???, ?"??? ??????? ?????
?"??? ??????????"?? ?f???.
????? ?????f???, ???.??????, ??????? ?????Z?f?f???, ??????? ?????????
??????? ??"???????.?,
ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate relationship in
which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of the actions of
the "head" of the corporate entity
????f?????? ??????? ????? ?"??? ??^??????? ???????"???,
?????????????"?f?????.?f????, ????.?"???, ??????? ????? ?"??? ???????f?"???
???????"???, ????????????????????f?????"????.
hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN TWi XRISTWi
PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting what is
conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking
To: Charlie
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
Charlie,
Not sure what you're saying.
Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI, BDAG places
Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and then gives
other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit." I know that BDAG
has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a single entry
as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any sense in
the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
John Wilking
Charlie wrote:
John,
I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the proper word for
"to impute" is ??????o??????v as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai which means
??oto
count??? as used for example in Lk 22.37?
C. Arnold
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilking"
To: "John Wilking"
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> Carl,
>
> I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing, ...credited to
your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account, translate the
verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed God and it was
credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make sense in
English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the right sense.
This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I am making
a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am translating, and a
translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John Wilking wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking? Initially I
didn't think it would be necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
>
> On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> >> process. The rush to translate into English is an indication that
> >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek. Carson writes
> >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> >>
> >> Elizabeth Kline
> >>
> >
> >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have an abiding
> >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best be conveyed
in
> >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that is still a
> >strong goal here.
>
> Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth) to be an
> obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be a minor
> obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of
Com-Pair Services!
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.4/810 - Release Date: 5/18/07 1:35
PM
For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services!
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list