[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
frjsilver at optonline.net
frjsilver at optonline.net
Wed May 23 07:32:52 EDT 2007
Dear Friends --
This is getting entirely too theological, mostly because there are some here who are overly -- even unreasonably -- invested in translating LOGIZOMAI as 'credit'. The word means 'consider, deem, ideate, think, think about (with a dotic-form object), reckon (as a metaphor -- not with numbers or other countable values).
Some of the less-than-helpful examples adduced here in English use 'credit' in its true Latinate etymological sense of _credo_ ('believe, trust'). This horse is even deader than the one we're still uselessly beating, since its Greek equivalent PISTEUW ('trust, believe, credit with') is not related in any way to LOGIZOMAI and its semantic fields. 'Credit' is probably excluded as a valid rendering of LOGIZOMAI.
My earlier attempt to elucidate this seems to have been largely ignored, but I'll give you the Reader's Digest-style condensed version:
LOGIZOMAI is synonomous with NOMIZW and nearly synonomous with ARIQMEW; only the last of these three words is *semantically* linked connected with the concept of 'number, count', yet even ARIQMEW is often employed metaphorically.
I agree wholeheartedly with Charles Arnold.
Peace and blessings to all.
Father James Silver
Monk James
Orthodox Church in America
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wilking
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:48 am
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
To: Charlie
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Charlie,
>
> You are confusing "The book read the story" nonsense with the
> message of the cross foolishness as the world sees it. Two
> different ideas. Mostly what I've gotten on this site is
> begging the question or missing the point. That's beating a
> dead horse.
>
> Thanks
> John Wilking
>
> Charlie wrote:
> John,
>
> You wrote "The President credited his wife's trust to her as a
> good thing.
> It sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker."
> And I agree
> that with men this kind of language makes no sense. In fact as
> St Paul says
> elsewhere in 1 Cor, God's wisdom is foolishness to the natural
> man. But in
> the case you are examining it is God, not man, who says He is
> crediting our
> account, imputing us with righteousness. John, God can do that
> wouldn't you
> agree? Our account which we could never settle with God has been
> setttledsimply by our belief in what His Son accomplished for us
> on the cross and in
> God's eyes that makes all who believe reconciled with Him. I've been
> following your thread here and your guys are just beating this
> dead horse
> way too much. In the words of the Eagles rock song "Get Over It".
>
> C. Arnold
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wilking"
> To: "George F Somsel"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> > George,
> >
> > Sorry, I wasn't using the English category of complement but a
> broaderone used by some linguists, though there isn't real
> uniformity. I'm using
> it in a broad way, the items in the semantic and syntactic scope
> of the
> verb, (the items in the VP minus the predicate, if you will).
> The verb
> meaning is indicated and restricted by its complement. The English
> translation of LOGIZOMAI must be consistent with the semantics
> of the
> words and grammatical markers within the scope of the Greek
> word. Thus the
> word "credit" as it is defined in English must be able to
> "credit faith,"
> "credit it to a person," and "credit it as righteousness," or at least
> agreeable with them even if it doesn't have that much scope And
> "credit"just doesn't have that kind of meaning in English. Try
> it in another
> sentence. "The President credited his wife's trust to her as a
> good thing."
> It sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker.
> >
> > John Wilking
> >
> > George F Somsel wrote:
> >
> > You seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a passive
> construction and therefore doesn't require a complement (i.e.
> direct object
> or accusative). We can illustrate this by an English sentence.
> If I were
> to say, "The hank has credited fifty dollars to your account",
> this would be
> an active statement having a direct object of "fifty dollars."
> If, however,
> I were to change the sentence to a passive construction it might
> then be
> "Fifty dollars was credited to your account", and the complement
> disappearssince it is now the subject. Similarly, we might have
> "God credited
> Abraham's trust to his account", and the object would be
> "Abraham's trust."
> If we transform this to a passive, it might then be "Abraham's
> trust was
> credited to his account (by God)" and now has no direct object.
> The passage
> makes perfectly good sense as it stands.
> >
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> >
> > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> > defend the truth till death.
> >
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: John Wilking
> > To: George F Somsel
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:03:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> >
> > George,
> >
> > Books and temples are are well and good but we are still
> restricted by
> the complement of the verb. The complement completes the idea.
> If our
> equivalent doesn't make sense with the complement, we need to
> find one that
> does. I think the problem we've had is that we don't have a verb
> in English
> that will easily take the complete structure. I think we should
> distinguishbetween verbs that don't make sense and verbs that
> don't take certain
> grammatical patterns.
> >
> > John Wilking
> >
> >
> >
> > George F Somsel wrote:
> >
> > While I don't desire to get into a theological discussion, the
> conceptthat God keeps books is very old going back to Akkadian
> epic. One of the
> functions of the temples was to function as a depository of
> records of
> transactions. This is even exemplified in the Apocalypse where
> the Lamb
> opens the seven-sealed scroll and finds further record in the
> mention of the
> "Book of Life." That the text should speak of a reckoning of
> something to
> one's account does not therefore seem surprising or out of
> place. I think
> you need to give the matter further consideration.
> >
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> >
> > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> > defend the truth till death.
> >
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: John Wilking
> > To: Bryant J. Williams III
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:43:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> >
> > Bryant,
> >
> > I've never even heard of the distinctions you're making. My
> question is
> from the perspective of a lexicographer. May I create for you an
> examplefrom an English dictionary. "Open" has about forty-two
> meanings. The
> seventh meaning is "free from ice" followed by the example "the
> lake is
> open." Imagine with me...the word "open", being the main entry
> is like the
> Greek word LOGIZOMAI we would look up in BDAG. "Free from ice"
> is like
> BDAG's definition "credit," and finally "the lake is open" is
> like the
> syntactic setting BDAG provides "credit someth to someone as someth."
> >
> > What if Webster's had provided a different example, something
> like "open
> book" which is from meaning five. It wouldn't work. You can take "free
> from ice" and put it in the place of open to get "the lake is
> free from ice"
> but you can't put it in "free from ice book" because it doesn't
> make sense.
> Putting "credit" in "credit something to someone as something"
> doesn't make
> sense in English because the verb credit doesn't have a meaning
> that takes
> that kind of complement pattern.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > "Bryant J. Williams III" wrote:
> > Dear John,
> >
> > Since you are referring to Romans 4:3, which is also quoting
> Genesis 15:6
> > (LXX), then the text should be indicated.
> >
> > Romans 4:3,
> > TI GAR hH GRAFH LEGEI? EPISTEUSEN DE ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAR
> ELOGISQH AUTWi
> > EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
> >
> > Genesis 15:6,
> > KAI EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
> >
> > NOTE: Same verse is quoted in
> > Galatians 3:6,
> > EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
> >
> > James 2:23,
> > EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
> >
> > You will notice that from EPISTEUSEN forward that is quoted
> identically.> Thus, for Paul, ELOGISQH is the Accounting Term,
> "to credit, to place on
> > account, count to one's account." Therefore, Paul is stating
> that when
> > Abraam (Abraham) believed, God credited that belief as
> righteousness (cf.
> > also James).
> >
> > It is all one and the same in meaning. The question that lies
> behind your
> > question is, What type of righteousness was being credited? Is
> it judicial
> > (Paul) or ethical (James)? Those questions need to be answered
> off list
> > since there is difference of opinion on imputed or infused
> righteousness,> etc.
> >
> > En Xristwi,
> >
> > Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Wilking"
> > To: "George F Somsel"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> >
> >
> > George,
> >
> > I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is
> whether the
> > proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author
> asserts.Which
> > meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates
> LOGIZOMAI as
> > "count something to someone as something?" Or which meaning of
> "credit" is
> > it referring to when it translates "credit something to
> someone as
> > something?"
> >
> > John Wilking
> >
> > George F Somsel wrote:
> >
> > Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
> >
> > It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are
> differing> views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In
> the Apocalypse it is
> > viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that
> >
> > ??"???????, ????? ??????????-?? ?"??? ?????????????? ???????
> > ?????????-?????? ?"????, ?f??????????-?????, ??????"?????,
> > ??.?"?? ????f?????????, ??????? ?? ???O?????f???, ?"???
> ??????? ?????
> > ?"??? ??????????"?? ?f???.
> > ????? ?????f???, ???.??????, ??????? ?????Z?f?f???, ???????
> ?????????> ??????? ??"???????.?,
> >
> > ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
> > hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
> > EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
> >
> > On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate
> relationship in
> > which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of
> the actions
> of
> > the "head" of the corporate entity
> >
> > ????f?????? ??????? ????? ?"??? ??^??????? ???????"???,
> > ?????????????"?f?????.?f????, ????.?"???, ??????? ????? ?"???
> ???????f?"???
> > ???????"???, ????????????????????f?????"????.
> > hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN
> TWi XRISTWi
> > PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
> >
> > Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting
> what is
> > conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> >
> > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> > defend the truth till death.
> >
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: John Wilking
> > To: Charlie
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> >
> > Charlie,
> >
> > Not sure what you're saying.
> >
> > Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI, BDAG places
> > Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and
> then gives
> > other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit." I
> know that
> BDAG
> > has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a
> single entry
> > as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options
> make any sense
> in
> > the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
> >
> > John Wilking
> >
> > Charlie wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the
> proper word for
> > "to impute" is ??????o??????v as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai
> which means
> > ??oto
> > count??? as used for example in Lk 22.37?
> >
> > C. Arnold
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Wilking"
> > To: "John Wilking"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> >
> >
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The
> Vindication of
> > Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing,
> ...credited to
> > your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account,
> translate the
> > verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed
> God and it
> was
> > credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make
> sense in
> > English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the
> right sense.
> > This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if
> I am making
> > a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the
> phonetic and
> > orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am
> translating, and a
> > translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > John
> > >
> > > John Wilking wrote:
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking?
> Initially I
> > didn't think it would be necessary.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > John
> > >
> > > "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
> > >
> > > On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> > > >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical
> analysis> > >> translation is not a necessary or even a
> desirable step in the
> > > >> process. The rush to translate into English is an
> indication that
> > > >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek.
> Carson writes
> > > >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you
> stumbled> > >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> > > >>
> > > >> Elizabeth Kline
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here
> have an
> abiding
> > > >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can
> best be
> conveyed
> > in
> > > >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that
> is still a
> > > >strong goal here.
> > >
> > > Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto
> Elizabeth) to be an
> > > obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to
> be a minor
> > > obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl W. Conrad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
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