[B-Greek] EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5

Webb Mealy webb at selftest.net
Tue Nov 13 01:10:45 EST 2007


Dear Elizabeth,

It seems to me that I gave background to my question by reference to a
familiar translation, but that the question itself is precisely a question
of Greek grammar. I wonder if I made it unintelligible, however, by using
English grammatical terminology. Let me try again.

The words EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN seem to me to be susceptible of two
different understandings:

1. You know the Messiah that you're all expecting? Well, Jesus is him.
2. You know Jesus of Nazareth? Well, he's the Messiah you're all expecting.

These two assertions aren't miles apart, but they are not the same
assertion. The one assertion predicates of the man Jesus that he is the
Messiah, and the other assertion predicates of the eschatological figure the
Messiah that that figure is fulfilled in the person of Jesus. 

I could put all of this in Greek, but the fact that I've expressed it in
English does not, I don't think, make it a question about English. 

I'd really like to know people's opinion as to whether the words EINAI TON
CRISTON IHSOUN are more likely to be making the one assertion or the other,
and the Greek grammatical principles people are depending on in forming
their assessments. 

For my part, I'm tempted to take it as making the first assertion on the
basis of how well it fits the context, but I'm inclined to take it as making
the second assertion, on the basis of my sense about Koine Greek grammar
that "in general the more definite noun kind of gets first refusal in terms
of being considered subject." If you agree that this tends to be the case,
but you don't think it applies here, what is it that gives you the clue that
IHSOUN is either the subject or the predicate noun in relation to the
infinitive?

Webb Mealy

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kline
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 9:30 PM
To: greek B-Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5

That post was sent before it was edited.   Too many errors.

The main point I was trying to make is that the process of  
transforming a greek construction into idiomatic english often  
obscures the greek syntax even when formal correspondence is the  
intention of the translation team. "The messiah was Jesus" doesn't  
have the same impact as "Jesus was the Messiah" in english. This is a  
question about english not about greek.


On Nov 12, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Webb Mealy wrote:

> EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5
>
>
>
> NRSV bucks the trend among translations in taking CRISTOS as the  
> subject and
> IHSOUS as the predicate nominative here in relation to the  
> infinitive EINAI:
> ".testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus".  It occurs to  
> me that
> that makes excellent sense conceptually. But it also raises the  
> question of
> its plausibility in grammatical terms alone. Would it have been  
> phrased any
> differently if the author had wished IHSOUS, the more definite of  
> the two
> nouns, to be understood as the subject, and CRISTOS to be  
> understood as the
> predicate nominative? After all, in general the more definite noun  
> kind of
> gets first refusal in terms of being considered subject. Or is the  
> phrase
> utterly ambiguous?

The NRSV isn't alone see F.F. Bruce Acts 1988:348, Barrett ICC  
1998:866 and Parsons-Culy 2003:345.

The NRSV and FFBruce are translations and since this isn't a  
translation forum (doesn't Wayne from SIL have several translation  
forums?) -- you cannot read greek grammar from a modern english  
translation unless the translator provides notes telling you why a  
certain decision was made. Anything short of that is just guess work.

Barrett (articular CRISTON) and Parsons-Culy (proximity to the  
infinitive) are probably wrong, see Wallace p194. Arguments based on  
word order and proximity have been demonstrated to be unreliable.


Elizabeth Kline




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