[B-Greek] EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5

Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Tue Nov 13 11:36:04 EST 2007


Dear Webb,

EINAI being the Infinitive requires TON CHRISTON to be the subject with IHSOUN
being the accusative of the infinitive EINAI. Thus,
(1)    "The Messiah (the Christ) was Jesus" or
(2)    "Jesus was the Messiah (the Christ)."
The rendering in (2) is taking IHSOUN as the subject due to it being a proper
name with TON CHRISTON as the direct object completing EINAI. Either one is fine
since both convey the same meaning. It should also be mentioned that the editors
of the USB3 & 4 place a comma between TON XRISTON and IHSOUN. This seems to
indicate that IHSOUN is being taken as the subject/proper name and TON XRISTON
as the accusative object of EINAI.

It is interesting that KJV uses (2) above (Christ) without the article with
XRISTON in 18:5, 25; while RSV uses (1) above in both instances (the Christ) in
18:5, 28. I do find it interesting that Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Jews
using the same phraseology in 18:5 as Apollos from Alexandria uses in 18:25.
Now, Luke is reporting what was said as an eyewitness with Paul in 18:5, while
receiving the third person report from Priscilla and Aquila (?) about what
Apollos said in 18:28 to the Ephesians Jews. Furthermore, in both cases the next
question would be whether to translate XRISTON as "Messiah" or render it as "the
Christ" (RSV) or "Christ" (KJV). I would translate it as "the Messiah."

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Webb Mealy" <webb at selftest.net>
To: "'Elizabeth Kline'" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>; "'greek B-Greek'"
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5


> Dear Elizabeth,
>
> It seems to me that I gave background to my question by reference to a
> familiar translation, but that the question itself is precisely a question
> of Greek grammar. I wonder if I made it unintelligible, however, by using
> English grammatical terminology. Let me try again.
>
> The words EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN seem to me to be susceptible of two
> different understandings:
>
> 1. You know the Messiah that you're all expecting? Well, Jesus is him.
> 2. You know Jesus of Nazareth? Well, he's the Messiah you're all expecting.
>
> These two assertions aren't miles apart, but they are not the same
> assertion. The one assertion predicates of the man Jesus that he is the
> Messiah, and the other assertion predicates of the eschatological figure the
> Messiah that that figure is fulfilled in the person of Jesus.
>
> I could put all of this in Greek, but the fact that I've expressed it in
> English does not, I don't think, make it a question about English.
>
> I'd really like to know people's opinion as to whether the words EINAI TON
> CRISTON IHSOUN are more likely to be making the one assertion or the other,
> and the Greek grammatical principles people are depending on in forming
> their assessments.
>
> For my part, I'm tempted to take it as making the first assertion on the
> basis of how well it fits the context, but I'm inclined to take it as making
> the second assertion, on the basis of my sense about Koine Greek grammar
> that "in general the more definite noun kind of gets first refusal in terms
> of being considered subject." If you agree that this tends to be the case,
> but you don't think it applies here, what is it that gives you the clue that
> IHSOUN is either the subject or the predicate noun in relation to the
> infinitive?
>
> Webb Mealy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kline
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 9:30 PM
> To: greek B-Greek
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5
>
> That post was sent before it was edited.   Too many errors.
>
> The main point I was trying to make is that the process of
> transforming a greek construction into idiomatic english often
> obscures the greek syntax even when formal correspondence is the
> intention of the translation team. "The messiah was Jesus" doesn't
> have the same impact as "Jesus was the Messiah" in english. This is a
> question about english not about greek.
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Webb Mealy wrote:
>
> > EINAI TON CRISTON IHSOUN, Act 18:5
> >
> >
> >
> > NRSV bucks the trend among translations in taking CRISTOS as the
> > subject and
> > IHSOUS as the predicate nominative here in relation to the
> > infinitive EINAI:
> > ".testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus".  It occurs to
> > me that
> > that makes excellent sense conceptually. But it also raises the
> > question of
> > its plausibility in grammatical terms alone. Would it have been
> > phrased any
> > differently if the author had wished IHSOUS, the more definite of
> > the two
> > nouns, to be understood as the subject, and CRISTOS to be
> > understood as the
> > predicate nominative? After all, in general the more definite noun
> > kind of
> > gets first refusal in terms of being considered subject. Or is the
> > phrase
> > utterly ambiguous?
>
> The NRSV isn't alone see F.F. Bruce Acts 1988:348, Barrett ICC
> 1998:866 and Parsons-Culy 2003:345.
>
> The NRSV and FFBruce are translations and since this isn't a
> translation forum (doesn't Wayne from SIL have several translation
> forums?) -- you cannot read greek grammar from a modern english
> translation unless the translator provides notes telling you why a
> certain decision was made. Anything short of that is just guess work.
>
> Barrett (articular CRISTON) and Parsons-Culy (proximity to the
> infinitive) are probably wrong, see Wallace p194. Arguments based on
> word order and proximity have been demonstrated to be unreliable.
>
>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
>
>
>
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