[B-Greek] The value of reading the NT in Modern Greek

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Aug 7 17:06:09 EDT 2008


It's accessible now as a PDF download: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/HistGrkSel.pdf
Don't try to read it through that "show PDF as HTML" -- the Greek text  
doesn't show up properly; download it and read it with Acrobat Reader  
or Mac's Preview or the like.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:

> Dear Carl,
>
> You said,
> "I suspect that there is a NT in Classical Attic somewhere out there,
> and it would be good to look at. Something that I made available for
> my own first-year Greek students within my "Supplement to Reading
> Greek" (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/RGSupplement.pdf)
> is a "Selections Illustrating Greek Linguistic History", including
> some documents ranging from 7th-century BCE to early 20th-century
> (Cavafy). If there were interest, I might make that available as a
> separate PDF on my web-site."
>
> I would be interested.


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: "B-Greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The value of reading the NT in Modern Greek
>
>
> Actually, I think there's much good in this suggestion. With a little
> hunting I think I've found the wanted edition: it looks like an ABS
> publication, described thus:
> "TGV/ANC Greek Parallel New Testament - Hardcover -- Special edition.
> The New Testament in Today's Greek. The ancient text of New Testament
> together with translation in Today's Greek in parallel pages.
> Translated into modern Greek by P. Vasileiadis, I. Galanis, G.
> Galitis, I. Karavidopoulos, professors of the Interpretation of the
> New Testament at the Theological Universities of Athens and
> Thessalonki in Greece. "
>
> It's worth searching around; although ABS has it, I found it for 2/3
> of the ABS price at Orthodox Marketplace (http://tinyurl.com/6g799n).
> Perhaps one could do still better searching farther.
>
> Some more specific comments infra:
>
> On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>> ... I have been enjoying the heck out of working my way through
>> the Modern Greek, using the Ancient Greek, which I know  fairly
>> well, as a cheat.퓔  I have no real desire at this point  to learn
>> Modern Greek; my interest is always in improving  my ability to read
>> the Greek New Testament.  As I say,  above all, it has been fun.
>> For someone who is in love with koine, it is interesting to see what
>> has become of the language.   AUTOU has become TOU (not to be
>> confused with the article.)  EIS becomes S.
>
> often in combination with the article, as in STHN/STIN or STON
>
>> Participles are usually replaced  with POU meaning who (and its
>> not declined) plus the  indicative, so hO BLEPWN becomes hO POU
>> BLEPEI.
>
> Actually I think POU is an all-purpose relative pronoun for any
> gender, sort of like Heb. ASHEr.
>
>> (The one who sees, like in English.) The future is  formed with
>> QA (which is from QELW INA) plus the subjunctive, so literally
>> instead of saying I will  eat, you say I want that I should
>> eat (does anyone  else find this weird, that Modern Greek here
>> sounds like Yiddish?)  OIDA and GIGNWSKOW give way to XERW, which is
>> from EXEURON.   Son remains  hUIOS when talking about Jesus, but
>> GIOS for ordinary  sons.   Anyway, these things are interesting (at
>> least  to me) but I think reading the Modern Greek NT also  helps
>> your koine Greek in a number of ways.
>>
>> NUMBER ONE:  You find morphemes that are familiar  to you from
>> koine, but in unfamiliar situations.  For  example in 2 Cor 10:4 you
>> find the modern Greek word  GKREMIZW, which is akin to Ancient
>> Greek  KRHMNOS, cliff.  AS  let as a helping verb is from  AFES.
>
> And we already find AFES + infinitive or + hINA + subjunctive as an
> equivalent for the imperative in the Koine GNtT.
>
>> In Jude 5 you have  QUMIZW for hUPOMIMNNiSKW, which may help you to
>> remember that the morpheme QUM  can include  mental activities as
>> well as emotion or wrath, which  might help you remember that the NT
>> word  ENQUMEOMAI means I consider or think.     Seeing these
>> morphemes in strange places helps  burn the Greek roots deeper into
>> the brain.  The  value of this in studying Homeric and Classical
>> Greek is often promoted on this list, but I had not  realized that
>> Modern Greek does the same thing.
>
> What I've pushed is cognizance of the fact that NT Koine Greek is a
> language in flux, and that understanding both earlier and later phases
> of Greek can illuminate one's understanding of the NT Koine. That's
> exactly the point that Caragounis (The Development of Greek and the
> New Testament) endeavors to demonstrate and drive home.
>
>> NUMBER TWO: The modern Greek will often give you a recognizable
>> synonym or paraphrase which allows you to understand the koine in a
>> new  way without using any English.  AMHN AMHN LEGW hUMIN in John is
>> rendered SAS BEBAIWNW, a verb which (in a slightly different  form)  
>> we
>> know from the koine NT.  hODOS is  generally replaced with DROMO and
>> DROMOS  in turn in Acts 13:25 becomes ERGO.  Buth has  talked about
>> the need for a koine lexicon written in  koine, so as to bypass the
>> English, but this is pretty  much what you have in the Modern Greek
>> NT, and  even more so in older Modern Greek translations.
>
> For this very reason I think it would be useful to have a "triglot"
> including the more-or-less Demotic "Today's Greek Version" and the
> somewhat-more Katharevousa Vamvas version of 1850 along with a
> critical (or even TR or MT) edition of the GNT.
>
>> These are so close to the koine as to offer almost an alternate text
>> which is pretty understandable to  any one whose koine is good and
>> who takes the time  to look up a few Modern Greek words and learn
>> the  changes to the language.  Are you not sure how to  render hO
>> hUIOS TOU QEOU
>> TOU ZWNTOS in Mt 16:16 into English? (and Carl Conrad says you
>> should not; see one of his recent Ad Nauseum posts  about thinking
>> in Greek versus translating.)  Well, you  dont have to.  Check out
>> the Modern Greek which has  Ho hUIOS TOU ALEQINOU QEOU, which, if
>> you think about, is probably what Jesus meant,
>
> Well, maybe ... it should be remembered that every translation (or
> paraphrase) involves interpretation -- and this may involve some
> slanting of what the original actually indicated. That may well be the
> case here.
>
>> and here you can  avoid translation.  Youre not exactly thinking in
>> Greek,  but you are at least not using any English (in my diglot,
>> even the maps are in Greek.)
>>
>> NUMBER THREE.  The Modern Greek is one take on cruxes,  a take
>> which, all things being equal, one  might think would have more
>> weight than say an  English translation.  Some examples from recent
>> cruxes discussed on this list:  The modern Greek  (or I should say,
>> one version of the Modern Greek)  does not retain the distinction
>> between FILEW and  AGAPEW in John 21:15ff (AGAPEW is used
>> throughout) but does preserve the one between BOSKW  and POMAINW.
>
> I'd say this involves one critical resolution of the problem of these
> alternating verbs in John 21; I personally think they're synonymous,
> but it's obvious that there were list-members who think that the
> different verbs are quite significant.
>
>> PROS TON THEON is John 1:1 is  simply with (ME) God.  (I think ME
>> is from META  but not sure; does anyone know?)
>
> Yes, and generally speaking, all prepositions take the accusative.
>
>> The Modern Greek  does not repeat QEOS in Jn 11:22, but does add
>> AUTOS,  suggesting the QEOS does imply SOME added emphasis.
>
> Here too I'd be inclined to say that some interpretation is involved.
>
>> You can see what becomes of rHMA (more or less replaced by LOGOS)
>> and of LOGOS (often retained or rendered with  a fuller phrase; in
>> Luke 1:2 LOGOS becomes MHNUMA CARMOSUNOU, joyful message.)
>
> But isn't that "good news" -- deriving ultimately from EUAGGELION?
> i.e., LOGOS in Luke 1:2 is interpreted to mean "gospel."
>
>> Now, of course, this could get out of hand.  Every exegetical point
>> could be  addressed by saying But the Modern Greek says!  This
>> would get annoying from someone who actually  KNOWS Modern Greek;
>> from someone like me, who  has spent about seven hours looking at
>> one Modern  Greek text, this would be intolerable.  But I find it
>> at least interesting to look up tough passages and see  the Modern
>> Greek take(s.)
>>
>> NUMBER FOUR.  Learning to read the Modern Greek NT is probably good
>> preparation for learning to speak  Modern Greek.  This is still on
>> my long term to-do list,  somewhere between memorizing the
>> pluperfect and  cleaning the top of my refrigerator, so at least
>> Im  making progress towards ONE of my goals.
>
> Yes, I think I too would put learning to SPEAK Modern Greek somewhere
> on the level of cleaning the top of my refrigerator. On the other
> hand, I've found the relatively few hours I've spent on the "Teach
> Yourself Modern Greek" (http://tinyurl.com/5hhys2) very much worth my
> while for getting a sense of how Modern Greek works.
>
>> NUMBER FIVE:  Trying to read the Modern Greek  NT by using the koine
>> NT as your crutch raises some  interesting pedagogical issues.  If
>> your goal is to improve your NT Greek, can you really call it
>> cheating if you use the koine Greek NT to help you  figure out the
>> Modern Greek NT so you can better  read the koine Greek NT? If this
>> is cheating, its a  pretty benign sort of cheating,  like
>> fantasizing about  your wife while making love to her.  Conrad has
>> maintained
>> that if all you know is the Greek NT, you dont really know NT
>> Greek.  If like me, you  can read the Modern Greek New Testament
>> with  a dictionary or the Koine NT as your crib, can you say that in
>> any sense you know Modern Greek?   Lest someone on the list
>> Alexander Pope me, let  me do it myself.  I know that learning a
>> little Modern  Greek is a dangerous thing, and Ive been learning  a
>> microscopic amount of Modern Greek.  But if  your goal is to really
>> know one Greek text super-well,  and if you can, on the basis first
>> of  radical familiarity  with the English and then the koine Greek,
>> understand the Modern Greek NT, should you read it?  I think you
>> should, for the same reason you should climb a mountain.   The
>> Modern Greek NT happens to be THERE, in a  convenient format
>> opposite the koine NT.  I remember  at one point someone on the list
>> expressed the wish for having an Attic NT.  If someone wanted to
>> produce a  koine/Attic NT diglot, or a Homeric/Koine NT diglot, or a
>> Linear B/Koine diglot, I would use it and find it helpful.   It
>> takes very little time to become fluent not in Modern  Greek, but
>> in the Modern Greek New Testament, and so  you get great bang for
>> your time buck.
>
> I suspect that there is a NT in Classical Attic somewhere out there,
> and it would be good to look at. Something that I made available for
> my own first-year Greek students within my "Supplement to Reading
> Greek" (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/RGSupplement.pdf)
> is a "Selections Illustrating Greek Linguistic History", including
> some documents ranging from 7th-century BCE to early 20th-century
> (Cavafy). If there were interest, I might make that available as a
> separate PDF on my web-site.
>
>>
>> NUMBER SIX:  And most importantly, reading the  Modern Greek New
>> Testament with the ancient Greek  New Testament as your crutch keeps
>> you engaged in  the Greek NT.  Other pedagogies, reading Homer,
>> trying to speak koine, working your way through Smyth,  are all do
>> doubt helpful, but whenever I wander too far  away from the Greek NT
>> I feel compelled to go back.
>>
>> This is probably the point at which some might ask, what  is your
>> question, Lightman?  I dont really have a question,  I guess Im
>> just recommending that once you get very familiar  with the Greek
>> NT, reading the Modern Greek NT might  be a good use of your time.
>> I guess Id like to know  if others have tried this and what they
>> think.  Above all,  I had never realized that even a demotic
>> translation,  not to mention what is sometimes called the Modern
>> High Greek, is so very close to the koine NT.  I think the  Modern
>> Greek New Testaments have been underutilized  resources for B-
>> Greekers, at least for this one.
>
> I'm glad that Mark has called this to our attention. I've order the
> diglot for myself, and as I said earlier, I could wish this came with
> a third version, the Vamvas (which I do have online through the Sword
> project).
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
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