[B-Greek] The value of reading the NT in Modern Greek
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Aug 7 17:06:09 EDT 2008
It's accessible now as a PDF download: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/HistGrkSel.pdf
Don't try to read it through that "show PDF as HTML" -- the Greek text
doesn't show up properly; download it and read it with Acrobat Reader
or Mac's Preview or the like.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
> Dear Carl,
>
> You said,
> "I suspect that there is a NT in Classical Attic somewhere out there,
> and it would be good to look at. Something that I made available for
> my own first-year Greek students within my "Supplement to Reading
> Greek" (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/RGSupplement.pdf)
> is a "Selections Illustrating Greek Linguistic History", including
> some documents ranging from 7th-century BCE to early 20th-century
> (Cavafy). If there were interest, I might make that available as a
> separate PDF on my web-site."
>
> I would be interested.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: "B-Greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The value of reading the NT in Modern Greek
>
>
> Actually, I think there's much good in this suggestion. With a little
> hunting I think I've found the wanted edition: it looks like an ABS
> publication, described thus:
> "TGV/ANC Greek Parallel New Testament - Hardcover -- Special edition.
> The New Testament in Today's Greek. The ancient text of New Testament
> together with translation in Today's Greek in parallel pages.
> Translated into modern Greek by P. Vasileiadis, I. Galanis, G.
> Galitis, I. Karavidopoulos, professors of the Interpretation of the
> New Testament at the Theological Universities of Athens and
> Thessalonki in Greece. "
>
> It's worth searching around; although ABS has it, I found it for 2/3
> of the ABS price at Orthodox Marketplace (http://tinyurl.com/6g799n).
> Perhaps one could do still better searching farther.
>
> Some more specific comments infra:
>
> On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>> ... I have been enjoying the heck out of working my way through
>> the Modern Greek, using the Ancient Greek, which I know fairly
>> well, as a cheat.퓔 I have no real desire at this point to learn
>> Modern Greek; my interest is always in improving my ability to read
>> the Greek New Testament. As I say, above all, it has been fun.
>> For someone who is in love with koine, it is interesting to see what
>> has become of the language. AUTOU has become TOU (not to be
>> confused with the article.) EIS becomes S.
>
> often in combination with the article, as in STHN/STIN or STON
>
>> Participles are usually replaced with POU meaning who (and its
>> not declined) plus the indicative, so hO BLEPWN becomes hO POU
>> BLEPEI.
>
> Actually I think POU is an all-purpose relative pronoun for any
> gender, sort of like Heb. ASHEr.
>
>> (The one who sees, like in English.) The future is formed with
>> QA (which is from QELW INA) plus the subjunctive, so literally
>> instead of saying I will eat, you say I want that I should
>> eat (does anyone else find this weird, that Modern Greek here
>> sounds like Yiddish?) OIDA and GIGNWSKOW give way to XERW, which is
>> from EXEURON. Son remains hUIOS when talking about Jesus, but
>> GIOS for ordinary sons. Anyway, these things are interesting (at
>> least to me) but I think reading the Modern Greek NT also helps
>> your koine Greek in a number of ways.
>>
>> NUMBER ONE: You find morphemes that are familiar to you from
>> koine, but in unfamiliar situations. For example in 2 Cor 10:4 you
>> find the modern Greek word GKREMIZW, which is akin to Ancient
>> Greek KRHMNOS, cliff. AS let as a helping verb is from AFES.
>
> And we already find AFES + infinitive or + hINA + subjunctive as an
> equivalent for the imperative in the Koine GNtT.
>
>> In Jude 5 you have QUMIZW for hUPOMIMNNiSKW, which may help you to
>> remember that the morpheme QUM can include mental activities as
>> well as emotion or wrath, which might help you remember that the NT
>> word ENQUMEOMAI means I consider or think. Seeing these
>> morphemes in strange places helps burn the Greek roots deeper into
>> the brain. The value of this in studying Homeric and Classical
>> Greek is often promoted on this list, but I had not realized that
>> Modern Greek does the same thing.
>
> What I've pushed is cognizance of the fact that NT Koine Greek is a
> language in flux, and that understanding both earlier and later phases
> of Greek can illuminate one's understanding of the NT Koine. That's
> exactly the point that Caragounis (The Development of Greek and the
> New Testament) endeavors to demonstrate and drive home.
>
>> NUMBER TWO: The modern Greek will often give you a recognizable
>> synonym or paraphrase which allows you to understand the koine in a
>> new way without using any English. AMHN AMHN LEGW hUMIN in John is
>> rendered SAS BEBAIWNW, a verb which (in a slightly different form)
>> we
>> know from the koine NT. hODOS is generally replaced with DROMO and
>> DROMOS in turn in Acts 13:25 becomes ERGO. Buth has talked about
>> the need for a koine lexicon written in koine, so as to bypass the
>> English, but this is pretty much what you have in the Modern Greek
>> NT, and even more so in older Modern Greek translations.
>
> For this very reason I think it would be useful to have a "triglot"
> including the more-or-less Demotic "Today's Greek Version" and the
> somewhat-more Katharevousa Vamvas version of 1850 along with a
> critical (or even TR or MT) edition of the GNT.
>
>> These are so close to the koine as to offer almost an alternate text
>> which is pretty understandable to any one whose koine is good and
>> who takes the time to look up a few Modern Greek words and learn
>> the changes to the language. Are you not sure how to render hO
>> hUIOS TOU QEOU
>> TOU ZWNTOS in Mt 16:16 into English? (and Carl Conrad says you
>> should not; see one of his recent Ad Nauseum posts about thinking
>> in Greek versus translating.) Well, you dont have to. Check out
>> the Modern Greek which has Ho hUIOS TOU ALEQINOU QEOU, which, if
>> you think about, is probably what Jesus meant,
>
> Well, maybe ... it should be remembered that every translation (or
> paraphrase) involves interpretation -- and this may involve some
> slanting of what the original actually indicated. That may well be the
> case here.
>
>> and here you can avoid translation. Youre not exactly thinking in
>> Greek, but you are at least not using any English (in my diglot,
>> even the maps are in Greek.)
>>
>> NUMBER THREE. The Modern Greek is one take on cruxes, a take
>> which, all things being equal, one might think would have more
>> weight than say an English translation. Some examples from recent
>> cruxes discussed on this list: The modern Greek (or I should say,
>> one version of the Modern Greek) does not retain the distinction
>> between FILEW and AGAPEW in John 21:15ff (AGAPEW is used
>> throughout) but does preserve the one between BOSKW and POMAINW.
>
> I'd say this involves one critical resolution of the problem of these
> alternating verbs in John 21; I personally think they're synonymous,
> but it's obvious that there were list-members who think that the
> different verbs are quite significant.
>
>> PROS TON THEON is John 1:1 is simply with (ME) God. (I think ME
>> is from META but not sure; does anyone know?)
>
> Yes, and generally speaking, all prepositions take the accusative.
>
>> The Modern Greek does not repeat QEOS in Jn 11:22, but does add
>> AUTOS, suggesting the QEOS does imply SOME added emphasis.
>
> Here too I'd be inclined to say that some interpretation is involved.
>
>> You can see what becomes of rHMA (more or less replaced by LOGOS)
>> and of LOGOS (often retained or rendered with a fuller phrase; in
>> Luke 1:2 LOGOS becomes MHNUMA CARMOSUNOU, joyful message.)
>
> But isn't that "good news" -- deriving ultimately from EUAGGELION?
> i.e., LOGOS in Luke 1:2 is interpreted to mean "gospel."
>
>> Now, of course, this could get out of hand. Every exegetical point
>> could be addressed by saying But the Modern Greek says! This
>> would get annoying from someone who actually KNOWS Modern Greek;
>> from someone like me, who has spent about seven hours looking at
>> one Modern Greek text, this would be intolerable. But I find it
>> at least interesting to look up tough passages and see the Modern
>> Greek take(s.)
>>
>> NUMBER FOUR. Learning to read the Modern Greek NT is probably good
>> preparation for learning to speak Modern Greek. This is still on
>> my long term to-do list, somewhere between memorizing the
>> pluperfect and cleaning the top of my refrigerator, so at least
>> Im making progress towards ONE of my goals.
>
> Yes, I think I too would put learning to SPEAK Modern Greek somewhere
> on the level of cleaning the top of my refrigerator. On the other
> hand, I've found the relatively few hours I've spent on the "Teach
> Yourself Modern Greek" (http://tinyurl.com/5hhys2) very much worth my
> while for getting a sense of how Modern Greek works.
>
>> NUMBER FIVE: Trying to read the Modern Greek NT by using the koine
>> NT as your crutch raises some interesting pedagogical issues. If
>> your goal is to improve your NT Greek, can you really call it
>> cheating if you use the koine Greek NT to help you figure out the
>> Modern Greek NT so you can better read the koine Greek NT? If this
>> is cheating, its a pretty benign sort of cheating, like
>> fantasizing about your wife while making love to her. Conrad has
>> maintained
>> that if all you know is the Greek NT, you dont really know NT
>> Greek. If like me, you can read the Modern Greek New Testament
>> with a dictionary or the Koine NT as your crib, can you say that in
>> any sense you know Modern Greek? Lest someone on the list
>> Alexander Pope me, let me do it myself. I know that learning a
>> little Modern Greek is a dangerous thing, and Ive been learning a
>> microscopic amount of Modern Greek. But if your goal is to really
>> know one Greek text super-well, and if you can, on the basis first
>> of radical familiarity with the English and then the koine Greek,
>> understand the Modern Greek NT, should you read it? I think you
>> should, for the same reason you should climb a mountain. The
>> Modern Greek NT happens to be THERE, in a convenient format
>> opposite the koine NT. I remember at one point someone on the list
>> expressed the wish for having an Attic NT. If someone wanted to
>> produce a koine/Attic NT diglot, or a Homeric/Koine NT diglot, or a
>> Linear B/Koine diglot, I would use it and find it helpful. It
>> takes very little time to become fluent not in Modern Greek, but
>> in the Modern Greek New Testament, and so you get great bang for
>> your time buck.
>
> I suspect that there is a NT in Classical Attic somewhere out there,
> and it would be good to look at. Something that I made available for
> my own first-year Greek students within my "Supplement to Reading
> Greek" (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/RGSupplement.pdf)
> is a "Selections Illustrating Greek Linguistic History", including
> some documents ranging from 7th-century BCE to early 20th-century
> (Cavafy). If there were interest, I might make that available as a
> separate PDF on my web-site.
>
>>
>> NUMBER SIX: And most importantly, reading the Modern Greek New
>> Testament with the ancient Greek New Testament as your crutch keeps
>> you engaged in the Greek NT. Other pedagogies, reading Homer,
>> trying to speak koine, working your way through Smyth, are all do
>> doubt helpful, but whenever I wander too far away from the Greek NT
>> I feel compelled to go back.
>>
>> This is probably the point at which some might ask, what is your
>> question, Lightman? I dont really have a question, I guess Im
>> just recommending that once you get very familiar with the Greek
>> NT, reading the Modern Greek NT might be a good use of your time.
>> I guess Id like to know if others have tried this and what they
>> think. Above all, I had never realized that even a demotic
>> translation, not to mention what is sometimes called the Modern
>> High Greek, is so very close to the koine NT. I think the Modern
>> Greek New Testaments have been underutilized resources for B-
>> Greekers, at least for this one.
>
> I'm glad that Mark has called this to our attention. I've order the
> diglot for myself, and as I said earlier, I could wish this came with
> a third version, the Vamvas (which I do have online through the Sword
> project).
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
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