[B-Greek] Advisory re: QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai idou
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Aug 7 17:32:18 EDT 2008
This discussion has already crossed over the line into hermeneutical
questions, which are not open to list-discussion. The spectrum across
which list-members range on matters of legitimate procedures of
interpretation is very broad. Let's NOT continue this line of
discussion, please!
Carl W. Conrad
Co-Chair, B-Greek List
On Aug 7, 2008, at 5:22 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> I don't follow your argument regarding one comment being 2000 years
> removed from the event. It clearly states in Acts 1.18 that he
> acquired it which is but a few years removed from the event. In
> fact, if we wish to go back to 1st semester Greek, it is a middle
> which classes are in the habit of saying "for himself" indicating
> his own action. It is by no means certain that Luke (or whoever
> wrote Luke-Acts) had Matthew at his disposal. All we can be
> reasonably certain regarding is that he had Mark, Q and certain
> traditions peculiar to himself. That Matthew also had access to
> some COMMON TRADITIONS by no means indicates that "Luke" had
> "Matthew."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark Cain <mark at markcain.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; robert gill <roby20 at hotmail.co.uk
> >; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2008 5:11:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai
> idou
>
> While it could be possible that the author of Acts may not have an
> access to
> the content of Matthew's account, I do. Perhaps the occurrence of
> Acts
> reference to something that is not included in Luke, is clearly
> indicative
> that Luke DID have access to Matthew's work. Notwithstanding without
> getting too far off topic here, I choose to respond to the text as
> it has
> been delivered on all levels -- from a single word to the entire
> canon.
>
> For me, Matthew's account of how the field was purchased is
> sufficient. The
> assumption that Judas paid for this in person as stated in an
> earlier post
> is about 2000 years removed from the event. Matthew's account is at
> nearly
> a couple of millennia closer.
>
> Mark Cain
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: "Mark Cain" <mark at markcain.com>; "robert gill" <roby20 at hotmail.co.uk
> >;
> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 03:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai
> idou
>
>
>> This does precisely what should not be done. The text from one gospel
>> cannot be used to supply features lacking in a different gospel
>> unless
>> there is a clear reference thereto -- and then only to the degree
>> referenced. Therefore, Matthew may illucidate the phrase
>> μισθοῦ τῆς
>> ἀδικίας [MISQOU THS ADIKIAS] of Acts 1.18 as referencing the
>> tradition
>> that Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, but one cannot
>> assume
>> that the rest of the tradition recorded in Matthew was known to the
>> author
>> of Acts.
>> .
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Mark Cain <mark at markcain.com>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; robert gill
>> <roby20 at hotmail.co.uk>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2008 8:00:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai
>> idou
>>
>> Sometimes you don't need to know Greek to find the answers:
>>
>> Judas did not buy the land. The priests bought the land. Matt. 27:
>>
>> 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned,
>> he was
>> seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief
>> priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have
>> betrayed
>> innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your
>> responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and
>> left. Then
>> he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the
>> coins
>> and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury,
>> since it
>> is
>> blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the
>> potter's field
>> as a burial place for foreigners.
>> Mark Cain
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> To: "robert gill" <roby20 at hotmail.co.uk>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 06:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai
>> idou
>>
>>
>>> 18οὗτος μὲν οὖν ἐκτήσατο χωρίον ἐκ
>>> μισθοῦ τῆς ἀδικίας καὶ πρηνὴς
>>> γενόμενος
>>> ἐλάκησεν μέσος καὶ ἐξεχύθη πάντα
>>> τὰ σπλάγχνα αὐτοῦ·
>>> .
>>> 18 hOUTOS MEN OUN EKTHSATO XWRION EK MISQOU THS ADIKIAS KAI PRNHS
>>> GENOMENOS ELAKHSEN MESOS KAI ECEXUQH PANTA TA SPLAGXNA AUTOU.
>>> .
>>> It states that he acquired the property from the "wages of
>>> unrighteousness" clearly referencing the 30 pieces of silver
>>> elsewhere is
>>> noted as having been paid to him for the betrayal. Assuming, as I
>>> think
>>> reasonable, that both Luke and Acts were written by the same
>>> author, it
>>> is
>>> curious that this is found in the Gospel according to Matthew and
>>> NOT
>>> Luke. The same verb KTAOMAI is used in Acts 8.20 where Peter
>>> speaks to
>>> Simon Magus who had offered to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit
>>> .
>>> 20Πέτρος δὲ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν·τὸ
>>> ἀργύριόν σου σὺν σοὶ εἴη εἰς
>>> ἀπώλειαν ὅτι
>>> τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐνόμισας διὰ
>>> χρημάτων κτᾶσθαι·
>>> .
>>> 20 PETROS DE EIPEN PROS AUTON, "TO ARGURION SOU SUN SOI EIH EIS
>>> APWLEIAN
>>> hOTI THN DWREAN TOU QEOU ENOMISAS DIA XRHMATWN KTASQAI."
>>> .
>>> Did Judas pay for this in person? One might assume such since I
>>> doubt
>>> that
>>> they had real estate agents at that time nor do I suppose that
>>> Judas had
>>> any servants to purchase it on his behalf. But, it doesn't tell us
>>> that,
>>> does it? We can only maintain what it clearly states or what is
>>> legitimately to be assumed therefrom because of the practices of the
>>> time.
>>> .
>>> With your second question you jump from Acts to Matthew. In both
>>> cases
>>> you
>>> have cited the passage in the AV (Authorized Version or KJV). Do
>>> you know
>>> any Greek? We do try to read the Greek here and not to simply answer
>>> theological questions.
>>> .george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>>
>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: robert gill <roby20 at hotmail.co.uk>
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 4:25:41 PM
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] QUESTION ON acts Acts 1:18 and the word kai idou
>>>
>>>
>>> GREetings
>>>
>>> (Acts 1:18) (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward
>>> of his
>>> unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and
>>> all
>>> his
>>> intestines gushed out.
>>>
>>>
>>> the word for "aquired" in the verse above is "ktaomai"
>>>
>>> according to the verse, did judas physcially pay for the field in
>>> person?
>>> did he purchase the field? is the word "ktaomai" primary meaning to
>>> purchase? there are a list of meanings for this word that all seem
>>> synonymous to me,but what is the primary meaning?
>>> ...
>>>
>>> 9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them,
>>> saying...
>>>
>>> when did the idou occur, before the women met the deciples or
>>> after they
>>> met the deciples?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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