[B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
John Wilking
jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 10 16:58:06 EDT 2008
Carl,
Should we view other bilingual dictionaries the same way, e.g. French/English or Chinese/English? Or does BDAG do something different because it is dealing with a dead language. I have for a long time envisioned our NT lexicon as potentially becoming identical with a First Century Koine Webster's, if we can imagine finding such a book.
John C. Wilking
--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
> To: "Vasile Stancu" <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 6:57 AM
> I would question what seems to me implied in this
> phraseology of
> "searching for a final meaning of a word." (I
> apologize in advance for
> my use of upper-case characters for emphasis -- which
> I've been told
> is tantamount to "shouting" at readers -- but I
> prefer to use plain-
> text rather than styled text in e-mail, and I really do
> want to
> emphasize some of the words I'm using.)
>
> I think we should expect lexical entries to assist users in
> thinking
> through the possibilities within the range of meanings that
> Greek
> words may have within the contexts that have been cataloged
> by the
> lexicographer, NOT to relieve the user of the
> responsibility to think
> carefully about these possibilities.
>
> I do not think we should expect a good lexicon to exhaust
> the
> possibilities of rendering a phrase in a meaningful
> translation. In
> fact, I don't think that TRANSLATION is the focal
> concern o the
> lexicographer so much as UNDERSTANDING the usage of words
> within the
> contexts within which they are found within the
> geographical-temporal
> frame of reference set by the lexicographer.
>
> We come here yet once again to a central issue that I have,
> for my
> part, particularly tried to pinpoint in discussions of
> process and
> procedures for learning Greek: the distinction between
> UNDERSTANDING
> and TRANSLATING a Greek text. I think it is a fundamental
> error -- an
> error of perspective and approach to the language and to
> the essential
> tools available to the investigator of a Greek text -- to
> set about
> searching a lexical entry for a precise gloss to use in a
> translation
> of the Greek text in question. Our primary objective in
> approaching or
> "accessing" a Greek text is NOT production of a
> translation of that
> text into the target language but RATHER acquiring an
> UNDERSTANDING of
> the Greek text, which understanding must be utilized, if we
> want to
> take the FURTHER step of producing a translation into a
> target
> language. In other words, provision of some particular
> "suitable
> gloss" for use in a translation is NOT the PRIMARY
> concern of the
> lexicographer but rather a SECONDARY concern of the USER of
> a lexicon.
>
> Perhaps the most useful feature -- one of them, certainly
> -- in a good
> lexical entry is the citation of snippets of Greek text
> illustrative
> of the usages within contexts for which the lexicographer
> has
> attempted to offer a "taxonomy." If we envision
> the function of the
> lexical entry as enabling us to UNDERSTAND the usage of the
> Greek word
> within "typical" contextual settings, I think we
> shall make better
> usage of the lexicon.
>
> I would imagine, respectfully, that Vasile is not really
> concerned,
> when using BDAG, with finding within a lexical entry for a
> Greek word
> the proper word to use in a translation of the
> text-in-question into
> Romanian. I remember from decades ago the discovery that
> German
> students in the Seminar für Klassische Philologie in
> Munich were using
> LSJ as their standard lexicographic reference work for
> ancient Greek,
> and realizing the implication of this: they were using LSJ
> as a tool
> for UNDERSTANDING the Greek word in cntext, NOT as a tool
> for
> producing a TRANSLATION into modern German.
>
> Searching a lexical entry in BDAG, LSJ or elsewhere for the
> single
> "right" word to use for translating the Greek
> into a target language
> is comparable to that procedure of beginning students who
> attempt to
> "access" the Greek text of a clause by hunting
> for the subject and the
> verb and then allocating adverbs and adjectives to their
> appropriate
> positions within an analytical construct -- the mental
> equivalent of a
> graphic "outline" of a clause or sentence --
> while thinking of each of
> the elements of the construct as an appropriate word in
> English or
> some other target language. I'm not saying that the
> graphic outlining
> is not a useful process, but it is a tool to assist and
> represent
> UNDERSTANDING the Greek text rather than to provide a magic
> key to
> TRANSLATING the Greek text into a target language.
>
> It may well be (I have found it sometimes so) that the word
> we finally
> choose t convey in an English version some particular Greek
> word is
> not to be found in the lexical entry in LSJ or BDAG; it may
> be that we
> have to grasp mentally what we believe the Greek
> phraseology means and
> do the same thing we must always do when we attempt to tell
> someone as
> clearly and precisely what we mean: we search in our minds
> for the
> most effective means of expression for that idea within the
> resources
> of the language we are speaking.
>
> Finally, the focal antithesis of my argument here is at the
> heart of
> my dislike, bordering on contempt, for the UBS glossary:
> insofar as
> that glossary functions to suggest a semantic range of
> meaning for the
> Greek word in question, it may be a
> "quick-and-dirty" aid to rapid
> reading of the GNT; BUT, if that glossary functions as a
> list of
> candidates, some single one of which is to fill the empty
> slot in a
> mental translation of the Greek phrase, then I think it is
> an
> instrument of the devil.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:
>
> > I appreciate this way of searching for a final meaning
> of a word.
> > Dictionaries/lexicons are very helpful indeed but
> sometimes they
> > just "encourage" one to search beyond the
> limits they unavoidably
> > have to have. Recently I found myself in a similar
> situation when
> > reading in Acts 22:22,25:
> >
> > ... οὐ γὰρ καθῆκεν αὐτὸν
> ζῆν.
> > OU GAR KAQHKEN AUTON ZHN
> >
> > or
> >
> > ... προέτειναν αὐτὸν τοῖς
> ἱμᾶσιν...
> > PROETEINAN AUTON TOIS IMASIN
> >
> > Neither the small UBS dictionary nor the BDAG give
> enough meanings,
> > I believe, for καθίημι ΚΑΘΙΗΜΙ and
> προτείνω
> > ΠΡΟΤΕΙΝΩ so as to fit these these instances.
> >
> > Vasile STANCU
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > ] On Behalf Of Carlton Winbery
> > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:58 AM
> > To: Carl Conrad
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] BDAG - EPITIMAW
> >
> >> On Jul 27, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:
> >>
> >>> EPITIMAW
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am briefly quoting from BDAG p. 384
> (underlining is mine)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (1) *to express strong disapproval of someone,
> rebuke, reprove,
> >>> censure **
> >>> also speak seriously, warn in order to prevent
> an action or brig one
> >>> to an
> >>> end** *
> >>>
> >>> (2*) punish*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I believe BDAG should have separted out the
> part underlined ( *also
> >>> speak
> >>> seriously, warn in order to prevent an action
> or brig one to an
> >>> end** *) and
> >>> lists examples (e.g. Lk 9:21) separated.
> 'Rebuke" and 'Warn' are
> >>> different
> >>> enough to deserve to be treated separately.
> >>
> >> You may be thinking more in terms of the way
> English differentiates
> >> these notions. My sense is that the fundamental
> sense of the Greek is
> >> something like "speak judgmentally" -- a
> notion that is broader than
> >> these various senses expressed in sensse (1) and
> also includes sense
> >> (2).
> >>
> >> L&N have:
> >> 33.331 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW b: to
> command, with the
> >> implication
> >> of a threat - 'to command.'
> >> and
> >> 33.419 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW a: to
> express strong
> >> disapproval of
> >> someone - 'to rebuke, to denounce.'
> >>
> >>
> >> Carl W. Conrad
> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Retired)
> >
> > When I see EPITIMAW I always think of Mark 8 and the
> confession of
> > Peter at Caesarea Philippi. When Peter confessed
> "SU EI hO CRISTOS,"
> > Jesus EPITIMHSEN them that they should tell no one
> concerning him.
> > When Jesus talked of the Son of Man suffering in
> Jerusalem, Peter
> > began EPITIMAN him. Then Jesus turned, saw the
> disciples and
> > EPITIMHSEN Peter with the words, "Get behind me
> Satan."
> >
> > If I had only Mark's version, I would not think
> that Jesus was
> > pleased with Peter's confession.
> >
> > Carlton Winbery
> >
> > --
> > Carlton L. Winbery
> > Retired Professor of Religion
> > Louisiana College
> > 318-448-6103
> > winberycl at earthlink.net
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> >
> >
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