[B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 10 16:58:06 EDT 2008


Carl,

Should we view other bilingual dictionaries the same way, e.g. French/English or Chinese/English?  Or does BDAG do something different because it is dealing with a dead language.  I have for a long time envisioned our NT lexicon as potentially becoming identical with a First Century Koine Webster's, if we can imagine finding such a book.

John C. Wilking


--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
> To: "Vasile Stancu" <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 6:57 AM
> I would question what seems to me implied in this
> phraseology of  
> "searching for a final meaning of a word." (I
> apologize in advance for  
> my use of upper-case characters for emphasis -- which
> I've been told  
> is tantamount to "shouting" at readers -- but I
> prefer to use plain- 
> text rather than styled text in e-mail, and I really do
> want to  
> emphasize some of the words I'm using.)
> 
> I think we should expect lexical entries to assist users in
> thinking  
> through the possibilities within the range of meanings that
> Greek  
> words may have within the contexts that have been cataloged
> by the  
> lexicographer, NOT to relieve the user of the
> responsibility to think  
> carefully about these possibilities.
> 
> I do not think we should expect a good lexicon to exhaust
> the  
> possibilities of rendering a phrase in a meaningful
> translation. In  
> fact, I don't think that TRANSLATION is the focal
> concern o the  
> lexicographer so much as UNDERSTANDING the usage of words
> within the  
> contexts within which they are found within the
> geographical-temporal  
> frame of reference set by the lexicographer.
> 
> We come here yet once again to a central issue that I have,
> for my  
> part,  particularly tried to pinpoint in discussions of
> process and  
> procedures for learning Greek: the distinction between
> UNDERSTANDING  
> and TRANSLATING a Greek text. I think it is a fundamental
> error -- an  
> error of perspective and approach to the language and to
> the essential  
> tools available to the investigator of a Greek text -- to
> set about  
> searching a lexical entry for a precise gloss to use in a
> translation  
> of the Greek text in question. Our primary objective in
> approaching or  
> "accessing" a Greek text is NOT production of a
> translation of that  
> text into the target language but RATHER acquiring an
> UNDERSTANDING of  
> the Greek text, which understanding must be utilized, if we
> want to  
> take the FURTHER step of producing a translation into a
> target  
> language. In other words, provision of some particular
> "suitable  
> gloss" for use in a translation is NOT the PRIMARY
> concern of the  
> lexicographer but rather a SECONDARY concern of the USER of
> a lexicon.
> 
> Perhaps the most useful feature -- one of them, certainly
> -- in a good  
> lexical entry is the citation of snippets of Greek text
> illustrative  
> of the usages within contexts for which the lexicographer
> has  
> attempted to offer a "taxonomy." If we envision
> the function of the  
> lexical entry as enabling us to UNDERSTAND the usage of the
> Greek word  
> within "typical" contextual settings, I think we
> shall make better  
> usage of the lexicon.
> 
> I would imagine, respectfully, that Vasile is not really
> concerned,  
> when using BDAG, with finding  within a lexical entry for a
> Greek word  
> the proper word to use in a translation of the
> text-in-question into  
> Romanian. I remember from decades ago the discovery that
> German  
> students in the Seminar für Klassische Philologie in
> Munich were using  
> LSJ as their standard lexicographic reference work for
> ancient Greek,  
> and realizing the implication of this: they were using LSJ
> as a tool  
> for UNDERSTANDING the Greek word in cntext, NOT as a tool
> for  
> producing a TRANSLATION into modern German.
> 
> Searching a lexical entry in BDAG, LSJ or elsewhere for the
> single  
> "right" word to use for translating the Greek
> into a target language  
> is comparable to that procedure of beginning students who
> attempt to  
> "access" the Greek text of a clause by hunting
> for the subject and the  
> verb and then allocating adverbs and adjectives to their
> appropriate  
> positions within an analytical construct -- the mental
> equivalent of a  
> graphic "outline" of a clause or sentence --
> while thinking of each of  
> the elements of the construct as an appropriate word in
> English or  
> some other target language. I'm not saying that the
> graphic outlining  
> is not a useful process, but it is a tool to assist and
> represent  
> UNDERSTANDING the Greek text rather than to provide a magic
> key to  
> TRANSLATING the Greek text into a target language.
> 
> It may well be (I have found it sometimes so) that the word
> we finally  
> choose t convey in an English version some particular Greek
> word is  
> not to be found in the lexical entry in LSJ or BDAG; it may
> be that we  
> have to grasp mentally what we believe the Greek
> phraseology means and  
> do the same thing we must always do when we attempt to tell
> someone as  
> clearly and precisely what we mean: we search in our minds
> for the  
> most effective means of expression for that idea within the
> resources  
> of the language we are speaking.
> 
> Finally, the focal antithesis of my argument here is at the
> heart of  
> my dislike, bordering on contempt, for the UBS glossary:
> insofar as  
> that glossary functions to suggest a semantic range of
> meaning for the  
> Greek word in question, it may be a
> "quick-and-dirty" aid to rapid  
> reading of the GNT; BUT, if that glossary functions as a
> list of  
> candidates, some single one of which is to fill the empty
> slot in a  
> mental translation of the Greek phrase, then I think it is
> an  
> instrument of the devil.
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 27, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:
> 
> > I appreciate this way of searching for a final meaning
> of a word.  
> > Dictionaries/lexicons are very helpful indeed but
> sometimes they  
> > just "encourage" one to search beyond the
> limits they unavoidably  
> > have to have. Recently I found myself in a similar
> situation when  
> > reading in Acts 22:22,25:
> >
> > ... οὐ γὰρ καθῆκεν αὐτὸν
> ζῆν.
> > OU GAR KAQHKEN AUTON ZHN
> >
> > or
> >
> > ... προέτειναν αὐτὸν τοῖς
> ἱμᾶσιν...
> > PROETEINAN AUTON TOIS IMASIN
> >
> > Neither the small UBS dictionary nor the BDAG give
> enough meanings,  
> > I believe, for καθίημι ΚΑΘΙΗΜΙ and
> προτείνω  
> > ΠΡΟΤΕΙΝΩ so as to fit these these instances.
> >
> > Vasile STANCU
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> > ] On Behalf Of Carlton Winbery
> > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:58 AM
> > To: Carl Conrad
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] BDAG - EPITIMAW
> >
> >> On Jul 27, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:
> >>
> >>> EPITIMAW
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am briefly quoting from BDAG p. 384
> (underlining is mine)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (1) *to express strong disapproval of someone,
> rebuke, reprove,
> >>> censure **
> >>> also speak seriously, warn in order to prevent
> an action or brig one
> >>> to an
> >>> end** *
> >>>
> >>> (2*) punish*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I believe BDAG should have separted out the
> part underlined ( *also
> >>> speak
> >>> seriously, warn in order to prevent an action
> or brig one to an
> >>> end** *) and
> >>> lists examples (e.g. Lk 9:21) separated.
> 'Rebuke" and 'Warn' are
> >>> different
> >>> enough to deserve to be treated separately.
> >>
> >> You may be thinking more in terms of the way
> English differentiates
> >> these notions. My sense is that the fundamental
> sense of the Greek is
> >> something like "speak judgmentally" -- a
> notion that is broader than
> >> these various senses expressed in sensse (1) and
> also includes sense
> >> (2).
> >>
> >> L&N have:
> >> 33.331 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW b: to
> command, with the  
> >> implication
> >> of a threat - 'to command.'
> >> and
> >> 33.419 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW  a: to
> express strong  
> >> disapproval of
> >> someone - 'to rebuke, to denounce.'
> >>
> >>
> >> Carl W. Conrad
> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Retired)
> >
> > When I see EPITIMAW I always think of Mark 8 and the
> confession of
> > Peter at Caesarea Philippi. When Peter confessed
> "SU EI hO CRISTOS,"
> > Jesus EPITIMHSEN  them that they should tell no one
> concerning him.
> > When Jesus talked of the Son of Man suffering in
> Jerusalem, Peter
> > began EPITIMAN him. Then Jesus turned, saw the
> disciples and
> > EPITIMHSEN Peter with the words, "Get behind me
> Satan."
> >
> > If I had only Mark's version, I would not think
> that Jesus was
> > pleased with Peter's confession.
> >
> > Carlton Winbery
> >
> > -- 
> > Carlton L. Winbery
> > Retired Professor of Religion
> > Louisiana College
> > 318-448-6103
> > winberycl at earthlink.net
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> >
> >
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> 
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