[B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
John Wilking
jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 10 17:36:32 EDT 2008
Carl,
I'm first of all wondering about the bilingual BDAG one that we have. Does it have the same function as other current bilingual dictionaries with reference to definitions?
John
--- On Sun, 8/10/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "B-Greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:25 PM
> Ideally, I would think our Koine Greek lexicon ought to have
> Koine
> Greek lemmata and Koine Greek definitions carefully
> categorized and
> subcategorized in the same fashion as any other
> same-language
> unabridged dictionary such as Webster's for American
> English, OED for
> British English, Larousse for French, etc. One ought to pay
> attention
> to the Diccionario Griego-Español as well
> (http://www.filol.csic.es/dge/index2.ht
> m). Particularly important in any of these is (a) the
> endeavor to be
> thorough (that endeavor will fail, but it ought
> nevertheless to be
> earnestly made), and (b) the citation of examples of the
> whole
> spectrum of usage with some clear indication of the era or
> time-span
> during which a cataloged usage is attested in the literary
> corpus.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2008, at 4:58 PM, John Wilking wrote:
>
> > Carl,
> >
> > Should we view other bilingual dictionaries the same
> way, e.g.
> > French/English or Chinese/English? Or does BDAG do
> something
> > different because it is dealing with a dead language.
> I have for a
> > long time envisioned our NT lexicon as potentially
> becoming
> > identical with a First Century Koine Webster's, if
> we can imagine
> > finding such a book.
> >
> > John C. Wilking
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Carl Conrad
> <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and
> "final meaning" -
> >> translation vs. understanding
> >> To: "Vasile Stancu"
> <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> >> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 6:57 AM
> >> I would question what seems to me implied in this
> >> phraseology of
> >> "searching for a final meaning of a
> word." (I
> >> apologize in advance for
> >> my use of upper-case characters for emphasis --
> which
> >> I've been told
> >> is tantamount to "shouting" at readers
> -- but I
> >> prefer to use plain-
> >> text rather than styled text in e-mail, and I
> really do
> >> want to
> >> emphasize some of the words I'm using.)
> >>
> >> I think we should expect lexical entries to assist
> users in
> >> thinking
> >> through the possibilities within the range of
> meanings that
> >> Greek
> >> words may have within the contexts that have been
> cataloged
> >> by the
> >> lexicographer, NOT to relieve the user of the
> >> responsibility to think
> >> carefully about these possibilities.
> >>
> >> I do not think we should expect a good lexicon to
> exhaust
> >> the
> >> possibilities of rendering a phrase in a
> meaningful
> >> translation. In
> >> fact, I don't think that TRANSLATION is the
> focal
> >> concern o the
> >> lexicographer so much as UNDERSTANDING the usage
> of words
> >> within the
> >> contexts within which they are found within the
> >> geographical-temporal
> >> frame of reference set by the lexicographer.
> >>
> >> We come here yet once again to a central issue
> that I have,
> >> for my
> >> part, particularly tried to pinpoint in
> discussions of
> >> process and
> >> procedures for learning Greek: the distinction
> between
> >> UNDERSTANDING
> >> and TRANSLATING a Greek text. I think it is a
> fundamental
> >> error -- an
> >> error of perspective and approach to the language
> and to
> >> the essential
> >> tools available to the investigator of a Greek
> text -- to
> >> set about
> >> searching a lexical entry for a precise gloss to
> use in a
> >> translation
> >> of the Greek text in question. Our primary
> objective in
> >> approaching or
> >> "accessing" a Greek text is NOT
> production of a
> >> translation of that
> >> text into the target language but RATHER acquiring
> an
> >> UNDERSTANDING of
> >> the Greek text, which understanding must be
> utilized, if we
> >> want to
> >> take the FURTHER step of producing a translation
> into a
> >> target
> >> language. In other words, provision of some
> particular
> >> "suitable
> >> gloss" for use in a translation is NOT the
> PRIMARY
> >> concern of the
> >> lexicographer but rather a SECONDARY concern of
> the USER of
> >> a lexicon.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the most useful feature -- one of them,
> certainly
> >> -- in a good
> >> lexical entry is the citation of snippets of Greek
> text
> >> illustrative
> >> of the usages within contexts for which the
> lexicographer
> >> has
> >> attempted to offer a "taxonomy." If we
> envision
> >> the function of the
> >> lexical entry as enabling us to UNDERSTAND the
> usage of the
> >> Greek word
> >> within "typical" contextual settings, I
> think we
> >> shall make better
> >> usage of the lexicon.
> >>
> >> I would imagine, respectfully, that Vasile is not
> really
> >> concerned,
> >> when using BDAG, with finding within a lexical
> entry for a
> >> Greek word
> >> the proper word to use in a translation of the
> >> text-in-question into
> >> Romanian. I remember from decades ago the
> discovery that
> >> German
> >> students in the Seminar für Klassische Philologie
> in
> >> Munich were using
> >> LSJ as their standard lexicographic reference work
> for
> >> ancient Greek,
> >> and realizing the implication of this: they were
> using LSJ
> >> as a tool
> >> for UNDERSTANDING the Greek word in cntext, NOT as
> a tool
> >> for
> >> producing a TRANSLATION into modern German.
> >>
> >> Searching a lexical entry in BDAG, LSJ or
> elsewhere for the
> >> single
> >> "right" word to use for translating the
> Greek
> >> into a target language
> >> is comparable to that procedure of beginning
> students who
> >> attempt to
> >> "access" the Greek text of a clause by
> hunting
> >> for the subject and the
> >> verb and then allocating adverbs and adjectives to
> their
> >> appropriate
> >> positions within an analytical construct -- the
> mental
> >> equivalent of a
> >> graphic "outline" of a clause or
> sentence --
> >> while thinking of each of
> >> the elements of the construct as an appropriate
> word in
> >> English or
> >> some other target language. I'm not saying
> that the
> >> graphic outlining
> >> is not a useful process, but it is a tool to
> assist and
> >> represent
> >> UNDERSTANDING the Greek text rather than to
> provide a magic
> >> key to
> >> TRANSLATING the Greek text into a target language.
> >>
> >> It may well be (I have found it sometimes so) that
> the word
> >> we finally
> >> choose t convey in an English version some
> particular Greek
> >> word is
> >> not to be found in the lexical entry in LSJ or
> BDAG; it may
> >> be that we
> >> have to grasp mentally what we believe the Greek
> >> phraseology means and
> >> do the same thing we must always do when we
> attempt to tell
> >> someone as
> >> clearly and precisely what we mean: we search in
> our minds
> >> for the
> >> most effective means of expression for that idea
> within the
> >> resources
> >> of the language we are speaking.
> >>
> >> Finally, the focal antithesis of my argument here
> is at the
> >> heart of
> >> my dislike, bordering on contempt, for the UBS
> glossary:
> >> insofar as
> >> that glossary functions to suggest a semantic
> range of
> >> meaning for the
> >> Greek word in question, it may be a
> >> "quick-and-dirty" aid to rapid
> >> reading of the GNT; BUT, if that glossary
> functions as a
> >> list of
> >> candidates, some single one of which is to fill
> the empty
> >> slot in a
> >> mental translation of the Greek phrase, then I
> think it is
> >> an
> >> instrument of the devil.
> >>
> >> Carl W. Conrad
> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Retired)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 27, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:
> >>
> >>> I appreciate this way of searching for a final
> meaning
> >> of a word.
> >>> Dictionaries/lexicons are very helpful indeed
> but
> >> sometimes they
> >>> just "encourage" one to search
> beyond the
> >> limits they unavoidably
> >>> have to have. Recently I found myself in a
> similar
> >> situation when
> >>> reading in Acts 22:22,25:
> >>>
> >>> ... οὐ γὰρ καθῆκεν αὐτὸν
> >> ζῆν.
> >>> OU GAR KAQHKEN AUTON ZHN
> >>>
> >>> or
> >>>
> >>> ... προέτειναν αὐτὸν
> τοῖς
> >> ἱμᾶσιν...
> >>> PROETEINAN AUTON TOIS IMASIN
> >>>
> >>> Neither the small UBS dictionary nor the BDAG
> give
> >> enough meanings,
> >>> I believe, for καθίημι ΚΑΘΙΗΜΙ
> and
> >> προτείνω
> >>> ΠΡΟΤΕΙΝΩ so as to fit these these
> instances.
> >>>
> >>> Vasile STANCU
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> ] On Behalf Of Carlton Winbery
> >>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:58 AM
> >>> To: Carl Conrad
> >>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] BDAG - EPITIMAW
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 27, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Oun Kwon
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> EPITIMAW
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am briefly quoting from BDAG p. 384
> >> (underlining is mine)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1) *to express strong disapproval of
> someone,
> >> rebuke, reprove,
> >>>>> censure **
> >>>>> also speak seriously, warn in order to
> prevent
> >> an action or brig one
> >>>>> to an
> >>>>> end** *
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (2*) punish*
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I believe BDAG should have separted
> out the
> >> part underlined ( *also
> >>>>> speak
> >>>>> seriously, warn in order to prevent an
> action
> >> or brig one to an
> >>>>> end** *) and
> >>>>> lists examples (e.g. Lk 9:21)
> separated.
> >> 'Rebuke" and 'Warn' are
> >>>>> different
> >>>>> enough to deserve to be treated
> separately.
> >>>>
> >>>> You may be thinking more in terms of the
> way
> >> English differentiates
> >>>> these notions. My sense is that the
> fundamental
> >> sense of the Greek is
> >>>> something like "speak
> judgmentally" -- a
> >> notion that is broader than
> >>>> these various senses expressed in sensse
> (1) and
> >> also includes sense
> >>>> (2).
> >>>>
> >>>> L&N have:
> >>>> 33.331 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW b:
> to
> >> command, with the
> >>>> implication
> >>>> of a threat - 'to command.'
> >>>> and
> >>>> 33.419 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW a:
> to
> >> express strong
> >>>> disapproval of
> >>>> someone - 'to rebuke, to
> denounce.'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl W. Conrad
> >>>> Department of Classics, Washington
> University
> >> (Retired)
> >>>
> >>> When I see EPITIMAW I always think of Mark 8
> and the
> >> confession of
> >>> Peter at Caesarea Philippi. When Peter
> confessed
> >> "SU EI hO CRISTOS,"
> >>> Jesus EPITIMHSEN them that they should tell
> no one
> >> concerning him.
> >>> When Jesus talked of the Son of Man suffering
> in
> >> Jerusalem, Peter
> >>> began EPITIMAN him. Then Jesus turned, saw the
> >> disciples and
> >>> EPITIMHSEN Peter with the words, "Get
> behind me
> >> Satan."
> >>>
> >>> If I had only Mark's version, I would not
> think
> >> that Jesus was
> >>> pleased with Peter's confession.
> >>>
> >>> Carlton Winbery
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Carlton L. Winbery
> >>> Retired Professor of Religion
> >>> Louisiana College
> >>> 318-448-6103
> >>> winberycl at earthlink.net
> >>> ---
> >>> B-Greek home page:
> http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> >>> B-Greek mailing list
> >>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> B-Greek home page:
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> >>>
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> >>
> >> ---
> >> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> >> B-Greek mailing list
> >> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> >
> >
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