[B-Greek] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ....

Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Wed Aug 20 16:17:56 EDT 2008


2008/8/20 Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George F Somsel
> To: Iver Larsen ; Jonathan Robie ; B-Greek
> Sent: 20. august 2008 02:15
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ....
>
>
> I don't think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist.  It
is not that they "came to
> life" but rather that "they lived."
>
> IL: Whar arguments do you have for this? BAGD says:
> "of dead persons who return to life become alive again of men (3 Km l7:23)
Mt 9:18; Ac 9:41; 20:12;
> Rv 20:4, 5"
> Noticr also the same word in v. 5, which can hardly mean anything than
came to life.
>

OJK: it is 'they lived' (KJV) = 'they lived again' ( EZHSAN = ANEZHSAN
Alford p. 732) = 'they came to life' (NET, NASB, many others). It's same
sense. They were martyred before. Now that 'they lived' has to mean 'they
lived again'. We just have to be less hung up on a precise sequence of
events.


> The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed
everything is in the vision
> beginning with chapter 4.  While everything in the vision takes place in
heaven, some things are
> more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in
heaven, some things in the
> vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision
are viewed as taking place
> on earth.  In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1
that
> .
> Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ
> KAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU
> .
> It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24
elders are in heaven.
>
> IL: Section 20:1-3 appears to take place on earth, but that does not carry
over to the new section
> that starts in v. 4.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ---

OJK:  Yes,iIt is clear that Chapter 20 has two para-chronic scenes, narrated
in alternating fashion: Paragraph 20:1-3 of the earthly scene is interrupted
by a heavenly scene to continue on to 20:7-10; where as the heavenly scene
20:4-6 is, after interruption, continuous to 20:11-15.

However, that the thing is now on the scene of heaven does not tell by
itself about the identity of those on thrones. It has to be solved from
other sources, namely:

John has been meticulously saying '(twenty-four) elders' and 'four living
creatures' throughout the book:  4:4-6; 4:9-10;5:6-8; 5:11; 5:14; 7:11;
11:16; 14:3; 19:4. In all occasions, along with the living creature, except
11:16. Cf. one of the elders - 7:13. living creatures w/o elders - 6:1-7.

He does not say who they are in this verse. Why doesn't he mention them as
the elders here?  If he meant it, he would surely have put 'elders' as any
other places he did. Also, I have not seen anything what John says about who
they are and what their role is. That would give a helpful to exclude them
here.

Oun.


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