[B-Greek] Regarding hWS
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jan 18 07:06:25 EST 2008
Sorry, I forgot to add the transliteration of the Greek texts in the
first sending.
On Jan 18, 2008, at 6:56 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
> On Jan 18, 2008, at 6:14 AM, RHutchin at aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:58 AM, RHutchin at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I was looking at the use of hWS in the NT.? It seems always to be
>>> paired with a noun to complete the thought.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Is there a grammatical rule that tells us that? hWS + NOUN? is the
>>> proper usage?? If a noun were absent, it would be implied.? I
>>> skimmed through some verses that I found and it always seemed that
>>> hWS was linked to a noun.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Does anyone recall instances in the NT where hWS is not linked with
>>> a noun to complete the thought and thus would be exceptions to
>>> this?? If there are such cases, is a noun implicit and clearly
>>> understood?
>>
>>
>> While hWS is often used as a particle of comparison with a noun, it
>> is by no means always so used -- and even where it is followed
>> immediately by a noun or noun phrase, the hWS may introduce an
>> entire clause, e.g., ἐποίησεν ὡς προσέταξεν
>> αὐτῷ ὁ ἄγγελος (EPOIHSEN hWS PROSETAXEN AUTWi hO
>> AGGELOS) Mt 1:24. This question could have been addressed most
>> readily by consulting a good lexicon, BDAG or LSJ. I won't cite a
>> lexicon article because it's just too long. Suffice it to say that
>> hWS, originally the relative adverb derived from the relative
>> pronoun hOS/hH/hO, has a fairly broad range of usage.
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>>
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>> I have only Thayer's and should probably spring for BGAD or LS.
>>
>> However, the lexicon seems to take the translated NT (and other
>> translated Greek works) and identify the various ways in which a
>> word is used. I am starting with the Greek text and looking for
>> guidance on translating that text.
>>
>> My question is whether there might be a grammatical rule to guide
>> the translator that might say, "The word hWS is to be linked with a
>> following NOUN to modify/explain the immediately preceding
>> subject." Would a Greek author ever use hWS other than in the hWS +
>> NOUN combination?
>
> Certainly. I just cited one above, Mt 1:24 ἐποίησεν ὡς
> προσέταξεν αὐτῷ ὁ ἄγγελος (EPOIHSEN hWS
> PROSETAXEN AUTWi hO AGGELOS)
>
> I just did a search in Accordance for ὡς (hWS) <FOLLOWED BY>
> <WITHIN 1 Words> [VERB]. I got 158 hits; here's a few of them:
> Mt 15:28 ὡς θέλεις (hWS QELEIS) "as you wish"
> Mt 27.65 ὡς οἴδατε (hWS OIDATE) "as you know"
> Mk 7:6 ὡς γέγραπται (hWS GEGRAPTAI) "as it stands
> written"
> Lk 1:23 ὡς ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι (hWS
> EPLHSQHSAN hAI hHMERAI) "when the days reached full term"
> Lk 11:6 ὡς ἐπαύσατο (hWS EPAUSATO) "when he stopped
> (praying)"
> 1 Cor 7:25 γνώμην δὲ δίδωμι ὡς
> ἠλεημένος ὑπὸ κυρίου πιστὸς
> εἶναι (GNWMHN DE DIDWMI hWS ELEHMENOS hUPO KURIOU PISTOS
> EINAI)"I give my opinion as one favored by the Lord to be trustworthy"
>
> The rule you are suggesting won't work because it is based upon
> inadequate data and inadequate observation of the actual usage of hWS
> in Greek NT texts. Of course hWS is used with a noun in the sense of
> "like a" -- but it is used commonly with other parts of speech too. If
> you try to straitjacket the usage of a word like hWS with a
> translator's rule such as you are proposing, you will continue to run
> into texts that don't conform to your rule.
>
> The reason why we need fuller lexica such as BDAG and LSJ is to
> protect us from oversimplified equivalences, just as we need fuller
> grammars to protect us from oversimplified syntactical assumptions.
> And it is true, of course, that the lexica and grammars are only as
> helpful -- not more than -- as the data and judgment of their
> compilers. In dealing with ancient Greek texts in their original form
> it is perilous to look for a "quick fix" answer to questions of
> meaning, whether the "quick fix" is a simple one-word definition in
> one's own language or a simple grammatical rule meant to explain all
> instances of a syntactic grouping.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
> ---
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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